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Author | Topic: What Is A Christian (Remix) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
mjfloresta writes: It's what Jesus said: I am the way, the truth, the life; "No one comes to the Father except through me". How much more un-ambiguous can the text be? How many roads is Jesus allowing for? And how can one be a Christian who denies the only way (means, path, direction..) according to Christ himself??? I've answered all that. You're just repeating yourself, proving what I said about a priori interpretations. One more try (before we classify you as "mind-closed-tight-as-a-bear-trap"). Jesus said, "I am the way." I = way. Got that? Jesus said, "No man cometh unto the father but by me. Me = way. Got that? Simplifying the equation: No man cometh unto the Father but by the way. Got that? Now, what is the way? Love thy neighbour as thyself. Got that? It is unambiguous unless you try to make it exclusive. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
When the driver says, "Yes, this is the bus to New Jersey," you'd be the one who's overreaching if you insisted it was the only bus to New Jersey. Not when the driver says: "This is the bus to New Jersey. There is no other way to New Jersey except on this bus."
quote: Its really not totally explicit though. Like you said, the "me" at the end could indirectly be referring to "the way" and not necessarily Jesus, himself. I just don't see it that way.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
No, not regardless of what they believe - regardless of what else they believe. O I C
So it's not black and white? There's "good Christians" and "not-quite-so-good-Christians" and maybe even a few "bad Christians"? But they're still Christians? Yup, they're still Christians even if they suck at being one.
Being like Christ doesn't make you a Christian if you aren't a follower of Christ and just happen to be on the same path by coincidence.
Why not? Because that is not what it means to be a Christian. You have to believe and follow Christ. If you end up on the same path by following another religion, that doesn't automatically make you a Christian. Your still a member of that other religion.
Which is more important? Being on the right path? Or some other Guy in a robe and sandals who happens to be on the same path? Important to what? Defining the word Christian? Being on the right path is irrelevant to arguing semantics So its very unimportant to this discussion.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4981 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
"This is the bus to New Jersey. There is no other way to New Jersey except on this bus." Is anyone gullible enough to take the driver's word for that?
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: Not when the driver says: "This is the bus to New Jersey. There is no other way to New Jersey except on this bus." As I've tried to explain, he didn't say that.
Its really not totally explicit though. I thought I explicitly said IMplicit.
Like you said, the "me" at the end could indirectly be referring to "the way" and not necessarily Jesus, himself. It "could" be interpreted either way. Isn't the safer interpretation the less dogmatic one? If I told you I was a Christian, would you say, "Nuh-uh, you're No True Christian because you “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I agree with Ringo.
But we are talking several unrelated subjects here. One is "What is a Christian". That question has absolutely nothing to do with getting to the Father or salvation or Christ-like behavior. It is really simple. What is a Christian. And if someone is a member of a Christian Church then they are, by definition, a Cristian. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
But if you are honest, you also admit that is without support and simply a belief. For me, sure. But I don't rule out the possibility that Jesus could reveal himself directly to a person and allow them to know him. And I wouldn't speak on behalf of everyone and claim that their belief must be without support, lest they be dishonest.
But it is still only relevant to being a member of the club. It has nothing to do with whether it is true or not. So?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
As I've tried to explain, he didn't say that. I didn't see your better explanation, the post previous to the one that you replied too, until after I had posted mine. I understand you explantion/interpretation and it makes sense and is a possibility. Honestly, though, I could read it either way.
Its really not totally explicit though. I thought I explicitly said IMplicit.
Yes, I was agreeing with you in saying that it really is not explicit.
It "could" be interpreted either way. Isn't the safer interpretation the less dogmatic one? Hell, I don't know.
If I told you I was a Christian, would you say, "Nuh-uh, you're No True Christian because you don't believe Christianity is the only way"? No, I wouldn't. But if you said that you were a Christian but you don't believe and follow Jesus. Then I would say Nuh-uh. Or if you said that you don't think that Jesus was God's son. Or if you thought that Jesus never existed.
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: You have to believe and follow Christ. That's what I said. You "believe and follow Christ" by doing what He said, not by joining a club.
If you end up on the same path by following another religion, that doesn't automatically make you a Christian. Your still a member of that other religion. Why can't a person be a member of another religion and still be a Christian? (And please don't waste any more of my time with that rigid "I am the only way" stuff.)
Important to what? Defining the word Christian? We're not defining the word "Christian". The OP says:
quote: You seem to be saying that what makes a Christian a Christian is what gang colours he wears. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
One is "What is a Christian". That question has absolutely nothing to do with getting to the Father or salvation or Christ-like behavior. But that is the question that the thread is addressing.
And if someone is a member of a Christian Church then they are, by definition, a Cristian. That is not the definition that this thread is trying to pin down. And we've already agreed that being a member is not enough:
quote: The club doesn't make sure that you agree with the bylaws before they accept you into it so you could be in the club and not accept the bylaws. Being a part of a Christian group is not what makes a True Christian. Sure, that makes you a christian, by defintion of being in the club. But that doesn't make you a Christian as in a follower of Christ.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
CatholicScientist writes: Although some believe that while on earth, Jesus was only human. There's got to be some minimum requirements for being a Christian that Christians, in general, can agree on. For one, I'd say that believing in Jesus' divinity is one of those minimum requirements.If God raised Him from the dead, the onus is still Gods power and not Jesus power. I would say that believing that He is alive today with God is more to the point. But thats just my personal belief.
jar writes: Its a different paradigm, though. The exclusivists believe that although Jesus died for everyone, individuals need to accept God (or Jesus) for who He is and not for who they think He is.
"The message of Jesus would be valid even if Jesus had only been myth and tales told around the campfire."
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And we've already agreed that being a member is not enough: No, we have not. Being a member includes abiding by the club rules.
The club doesn't make sure that you agree with the bylaws before they accept you into it so you could be in the club and not accept the bylaws. Maybe in SOME chapters of the club. But in every Christian Church I have even attended, the rules, the "I believes", are recited at every service.
Being a part of a Christian group is not what makes a True Christian. Sure, that makes you a christian, by defintion of being in the club. But that doesn't make you a Christian as in a follower of Christ. Yawn. Sorry but being a follower of Christ, what ever that means, that has NOTHING to do with being a Christian. You even admit in that very same paragraph that "Sure, that makes you a christian, by defintion of being in the club". Sorry, but if you are in the club by definition you are a True Christian. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
That's what I said. You "believe and follow Christ" by doing what He said, not by joining a club. Yes, but if you believe and follow Bob and coincidentally end up on the path Jesus described, then you are not believeing and following Christ, you are believing and following Bob. You might be very Christ-like, but you aren't a Christian, by definition.
Why can't a person be a member of another religion and still be a Christian? They can. For example, there are Buddhist-Christians. I would still consider them Christians. Additional qualifiers don't make you non-christian. Its the lack of the Christian qualifier that makes you non-christian.
We're not defining the word "Christian". The OP says:
quote: Meh, same thing.
You seem to be saying that what makes a Christian a Christian is what gang colours he wears. No. I think it matters what you believe. Unless you're conflating wearing gang colors with having a belief. If you believe in Jesus then you're a Christian. If you've failed to follow him well, then you're still a Christian. If you don't believe in Jesus, then you're not a Christian. If you're coincidentally following him, but don't believe in him, then you're not a Christian.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
...if you said that you were a Christian but you don't believe and follow Jesus. Then I would say Nuh-uh. Or if you said that you don't think that Jesus was God's son. Or if you thought that Jesus never existed. I agree with you. Anyone may be able to make it into heaven by doing the good philosophies of the tales told round the campfire, but to be a Christian, you need to relate to Christ IMHO.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I agree with you. Anyone may be able to make it into heaven by doing the good philosophies of the tales told round the campfire, but to be a Christian, you need to relate to Christ IMHO. It really is that simple
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