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Author Topic:   What Is A Christian (Remix)
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 133 (425957)
10-04-2007 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
10-04-2007 4:09 PM


Re: On the way
But in every Christian Church I have even attended, the rules, the "I believes", are recited at every service.

Someone could lie about their beliefs to get into the club. If they don't really believe the bylaws then they're not really a Christian, no matter if the club lets them in or not.

Sorry but being a follower of Christ, what ever that means, that has NOTHING to do with being a Christian.

It means that you try to live your life as he prescribed and that you believe in him. And that has EVERYTHING to do with being a Christian.

You even admit in that very same paragraph that "Sure, that makes you a christian, by defintion of being in the club".

Yeah, by definition of being in the club. But that is not how a True Christian is defined.

Sorry, but if you are in the club by definition you are a True Christian.

I don't think so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 4:09 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 133 (425959)
10-04-2007 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
10-04-2007 4:18 PM


Re: Just joining...man this thread moves quick!
Peter walked on water.

Touché.

But did he raise somebody from the dead?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 4:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 4:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 59 by Brian, posted 10-04-2007 4:45 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 133 (425960)
10-04-2007 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
10-04-2007 4:22 PM


It's the "Christian qualifier" that we're trying to discover in this thread.

Yes, we are. So what are they?

I'd say they are, very simply, believing and following Jesus.

You're treating your own assumptions as a given.

More like I'm treating my opinions as correct :D


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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 133 (425967)
10-04-2007 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
10-04-2007 4:28 PM


Re: On the way
It means that you try to live your life as he prescribed and that you believe in him. And that has EVERYTHING to do with being a Christian.

It still has NOTHING to do with being a "Christian".

Define "Christian".

Wait, let me guess: "Christian" = a person who is in a Christian club.

Well, this thread is about what a True Christian is. Not what a Club Christian is. They are different things.

Yeah, by definition of being in the club. But that is not how a True Christian is defined.

Ah, the No True Scotsman fallacy rears its head.

So what makes a True Christian? Believing the Creed, right? Not just being a part of the club (which doesn't require actually believing the creed).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 4:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 133 (425969)
10-04-2007 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
10-04-2007 4:33 PM


Following a belief means doing something about it, not just "believing" it.

Yeah, that's why I typed believing AND following Jesus.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 4:33 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 133 (425971)
10-04-2007 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by petrophysics1
10-04-2007 4:41 PM


Re: Just joining...man this thread moves quick!
I would describe a Christian as someone who believes the Old Roman Creed.

That works for me.

P.S. Does this creed say Jesus Christ= God, or does it say Jesus Christ= the only son of God?

What's that part about being the Lord mean?


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 133 (425975)
10-04-2007 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
10-04-2007 4:30 PM


Re: Just joining...man this thread moves quick!
Jesus said that the Apostles would do such miracles. And in addition, Jesus never claimed that he did the miracles but rather God working through him.

Yeah. I could see it either way.

Jesus= divine vs fully human; its been discussed elsewhere and is off topic here. I'm just gonna drop it.


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 133 (425976)
10-04-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
10-04-2007 4:47 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

Yeah, that's why I typed believing AND following Jesus.


Following His directions is the same as believing that His directions are the right way to go.

By believing Jesus I meant believing what he said. As in being the Son of God, etc. Not just believing that his direction is the right way to go. Obviously you'd believe it was the right way to go if you were following it.


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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 133 (425982)
10-04-2007 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
10-04-2007 4:48 PM


Re: On the way
Sorry, but being in the club requires that you subscribe to the bylaws, the "I believes".

No it doesn't. How does it?

How does the club test that you honestly subscribe to the bylaws and are not just saying that you do?

It doesn't.

What are the requirements that you actually subscribe to the bylaws and are not just saying that you do?

There are none.

A non-Christian could be in the club.

Being in the club doesn't make you a Christian. Q.E.D.

Wrong. The title of the thread is "What Is A Christian (Remix)" and no place in the Op does the word "True" even appear.

It doesn't have to. It was implied. Ask Phat.


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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 133 (425986)
10-04-2007 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by jar
10-04-2007 5:08 PM


Re: On the way
Sorry, but to be in the club all that is needed is that you subscribe to the bylaws and that the club accept that you have done so. If you are a member of the club called "Christians" then you are a "Christian".

I just don't see any other way around it.

An evil anti-Christian atheist, bent on destoying Christianity, could join the club by simply stating the "I believes".

That person is a non-Christian and they could easily get into the club.

If a non-Christian can be in the club then being in the club doesn't necessarily mean that you are a Christian.

How can you not see that?

There is no way that you can actually test whether someone really believes the "I believes" or simply so asserts.

That's why there could be a non-christian in the club.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 5:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 133 (425990)
10-04-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
10-04-2007 5:19 PM


We can follow His instructions about what to do whether the stories about Him are true or not, because His instructions make sense. Loving thy neighbour just works better than constantly fighting with him.

The stories about Him help to clarify who our neighbour is. (Even the Samaritans? :eek: ) They help us to understand that even if we're prodigal, it isn't the end of the world. They show us a way that we know intuitively is "the way" to live.

That's all fine and dandy, and I've heard it before and it makes sense.

But that doesn't further the discussion on what the minimum requirements are for being a Christian.

The stories about Jesus make sense in the same way that Aesop's fables make sense. They don't have to be "true" to be valuable. You don't have to believe that animals can talk to believe what they say.

But if you don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God, and you just think that those are some good fables, then you're not really a Christian. At least not in my opinion.

Catholic Scientist writes:

By believing Jesus I meant believing what he said. As in being the Son of God, etc.


We've been through that. We don't know that He said that. We only know that somebody claimed that He said that.

I guess it is possible for someone to believe that Jesus was not divine, and just had a good philosphy that is worth following, and still be rightfully considered a Christian.

So know I don't know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 5:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 133 (425992)
10-04-2007 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
10-04-2007 5:26 PM


Re: On the way
If they assert that they believe the bylaws, how can you tell they are an "evil anti-Christian atheist?"

If they let you in on the secret you could tell.

But my point is more that you can't tell. Simply being in the club is not enough to know that the person is, in fact, a Christian.

They are still a member in good standing of the club, "Christians."

There's more to it than just being a member of the club.


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 133 (426123)
10-05-2007 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
10-04-2007 5:42 PM


You're setting the bar waaaay higher than the minimum standard.

I don't think so. I think that in order to be considered a Christian, you have to be a Christian in your own mind. Its something that you consciously are.

The minimum standard is: being "like Christ"

I think that sets the bar too low. With this standard, someone could be a Christian and not even know it. I think you should know that you are a Christian.

For example, Ghandi was Christ-like. Acording to your standard, he would have been a Christian but in reality he was a Hindu and not a Christian.

That right there shows that your standard doesn't work.


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 Message 74 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 5:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 133 (426151)
10-05-2007 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by macaroniandcheese
10-05-2007 11:44 AM


but, to be a christian in one's own mind doesn't necessarily require being a christian in *your* mind.

The point was the people that don't consider themselves to be Christian, shouldn't be considered Christian by someone else just because they are like Christ. If you don't consider yourself a Christian, then you're not.

if someone doesn't think jesus was god, but thinks he's really cool and tries to live like him and thinks he's a christian, he's every right, despite what you or your friends may say.

That's been covered.

quote:
From Message 72

Me writes:

I guess it is possible for someone to believe that Jesus was not divine, and just had a good philosphy that is worth following, and still be rightfully considered a Christian.


if only christians can be saved

False premise.

But if that was a true premise, then you would be correct.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-05-2007 11:44 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-05-2007 12:48 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 133 (426153)
10-05-2007 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
10-05-2007 12:03 PM


Christian Scientist writes:

I think that in order to be considered a Christian, you have to be a Christian in your own mind.


Jesus disagreed with you. He said that many who think they were in on the ground floor by saying, "Lord! Lord!", will not be accepted - and many that don't expect to be accepted will be.

Like jar said, Jesus was talking about who would be saved, not who should be considered a Christian.

By their fruits ye shall know them. I have no trouble at all recognizing Gandhi as christian.

The reason I have trouble recognizing Gandhi as Christian is because he wasn't one. Oh wait, is that a little "c" on purpose?

If you define christian (little "c") as simply "like-Christ", then yeah, Gandhi was christian.

But Christian (big "C"), as in a member of the Christian community, then no, Gandhi wasn't a Christian.

My point about the Chrstian (big "C) label was that simply being a member of the community is not enought to be a True Christian. You should actually believe the stuff too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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