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Author Topic:   The Ghost of Hitler
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 31 of 65 (426215)
10-05-2007 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Taz
10-04-2007 11:09 PM


Re: Look what Darwin hath wrought!
My point exactly. It is exactly this mentality that has allowed atrocities to persist throughout the ages.
Does that include Atheist-communist regimes of the 20th century that murdered at least 100 million persons in less than nine decades?
Do you not see the correlation between "whatever the furher says or does is righteous" and "whatever god says or does is righteous"?
You have misunderstood, Tazmanius Devilus. The latter quote in your blue box was made in the context of "in the Bible." I am not used to debating persons who have no reading comprehension.
Ray

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 65 (426222)
10-05-2007 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bluegenes
10-03-2007 9:14 AM


How ideologies form
any thoughts as to the reasons for the rise of Nazi-ism.
In many ways, Nazism did a lot of good for Germany. It strengthened their economy, it gave the people a sense of belonging, and a sense of national pride. The Nazi's were very squared away and I think it gave the people a strong sense of security. Plus they had a very powerful orator filling their minds with things they wanted to hear. The problem is, they had a much darker side too. One that sought out scapegoats to eliminate. When it all came to fruition they devised one of the greatest atrocities the world has ever known.
I'll start things by pointing out that without religion, there would have been no "Gentiles" and no "Jews" in Europe, just people. Religion was and is essential in perpetuating the separate identities.
That's silly and totally false. Jews are not simply a religion. Semites are a race of people, just like Asians, Caucasions, or negro's are a race of people's. Humans love to separate themselves, whether its dividing their allegiances through teams, race, religion, scientific affiliations, different branches of service through inter-service rivalry, male, female, short, tall, thin, fat, you name it.
Anyone agree or disagree?
I understand what you are saying, and generally I would agree. But I don't believe that if everyone had the same religion, or no religion, we'd all traipse through life avoiding conflict. Look no further than the Deep South. Blacks and Whites have had the same religion for centuries, and that didn't stop anyone from hating the other.
There are many converging factors at work here to understand Nazism, or other ideologies like them. I don't think they can be summarized in such quaint, cut and dry terms.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 33 of 65 (426223)
10-05-2007 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Cold Foreign Object
10-05-2007 5:14 PM


Re: Look what Darwin hath wrought!
Cold writes:
Does that include Atheist-communist regimes of the 20th century that murdered at least 100 million persons in less than nine decades?
Of course! That's the point. It doesn't matter whether one is religious or not when it comes to mass murder and genocide. The whole point is the mentality, the thought process that lead up to it and allow it to persist.
You said so yourself. God ordered the murder of everyone (including the little toddlers) in Jerico and it was righteous. How is that different from Hitler ordering the murder of millions of Jews or Stalin ordering the murder of millions of his own people? The only conceivable way these murders were allowed to be carried out is if the people that carried out the murders had the same mentality that you are having right now: that your god, your leader, or whatever ordered the murder of whole peoples and it your god/leader/whatever is always righteous.
You have misunderstood, Tazmanius Devilus. The latter quote in your blue box was made in the context of "in the Bible." I am not used to debating persons who have no reading comprehension.
Huh? Are you saying that it is just and righteous to kill entire groups of people (including the little children) just because it was in the bible? Again, how is this different than how the nazis tried to justify their murderous campaigns against the Jews?
Now, remember that we are not talking about atheism versus theism. We are talking about the mentality and the thought process required for these genocidal acts to happen and persist. Right now, it really isn't helping your case when you said god was righteous to order the Israelites to kill everyone (including the children) inside Jerico and other cities of Canaan.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 34 of 65 (426224)
10-05-2007 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Cold Foreign Object
10-04-2007 9:42 PM


Re: Look what Darwin hath wrought!
Darwinism converted science to evolutionism by 1874. Evolution says Genesis is false. In turn, the Wellhausen school in Germany became emboldened and created the Documentary Hypothesis that predictably asserted, without any external evidence, that early Mosaic authorship was false, the Jews conspired to fool the world. Since they were Darwinists and Haeckelysts could we expect them to conclude anything else about the Old Testament? Several decades later their German brothers concluded the same: the Jews were in conspiracy to rule the world, and armed with Darwin's theory they selected their enemies for extinction.
If there's some bit of that that you believe is true, perhaps you would produce some evidence for it.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 35 of 65 (426226)
10-05-2007 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Cold Foreign Object
10-05-2007 4:58 PM


Cold writes:
Blaming Hitler on Luther is slander of Luther and all Protestants.
Care to address the actual Luther quotes?

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-05-2007 4:58 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 36 of 65 (426230)
10-05-2007 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Cold Foreign Object
10-04-2007 10:39 PM


Hitler was an Atheist.
Of course, you have no evidence for this bizarre untruth.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 37 of 65 (426234)
10-05-2007 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2007 5:38 PM


Re: How ideologies form
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
Plus they had a very powerful orator filling their minds with things they wanted to hear. The problem is, they had a much darker side too. One that sought out scapegoats to eliminate.
For a second there, I thought you were talking about Reagan.
quote:
"All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke
All that is necessary for something like Nazism to arise... is an excuse, like hatred of Jews or hatred of science. You can tell who the "good men" are because they're the ones fighting such nonsense.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 38 of 65 (426235)
10-05-2007 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Cold Foreign Object
10-05-2007 4:58 PM


Hitler, an educated white supremacist, empowered by Darwin's theory ...
... which he rejected as false ...
I don't know why you call Hitler educated. He dropped out of school at sixteen, subsequently failed to get into art school, and certainly knew damn all about evolution except that he didn't like it.
You have not posted any evidence supporting the claim of Christianity in behalf of Hitler. Since he murdered millions of persons, including many Catholics and Protestants, he was an Atheist.
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. Many Christians and other theists have murdered people, including their own co-religionists.
Your entire case rests upon believing Hitler while ignoring the genocide he caused.
Do you hope that hateful libels like this will actually deceive someone other than yourself?
What is in dispute is your refusal to see that it was slander and hijack by an Atheist in the process of murdering millions of persons.
We can't "see" what doesn't exist.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 39 of 65 (426237)
10-05-2007 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Cold Foreign Object
10-05-2007 4:58 PM


CFO Projects Again
CFO you go and on about slander all the while you engage in it.
CFO writes:
Hitler, an educated white supremacist, empowered by Darwin's theory
Hitler as far as I know *never* referenced Darwin in his writing or speeches. Hitler believed that the races where created (unequally) by God.
However he frequently cited Martin Luther. So who is slandering.
You are spreading false information without justification. You are slandering Darwin and by your own logic Darwin then must be spreading the Gospel.... LOL.
cfo writes:
What is in dispute is your refusal to see that it was slander and hijack by an Atheist in the process of murdering millions of persons.
Hitler used phrase like "Divine Destiny" and "God's Will".
cfo writes:
Blaming Hitler on Luther is slander of Luther and all Protestants.
As several have informed you it is *NOT* slander if true. You making a fool of yourself by continuing along this vein.
cfo writes:
Since you are an Atheist-evolutionist we have an obvious explanation for your slander.
And since you are a cultic-superstitionist who has already demonstrated the ability to avoid the truth we can explain why you cannot accept the facts in this circumstance.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 65 (426241)
10-05-2007 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Cold Foreign Object
10-04-2007 10:39 PM


Luther was the theologian that God chose to ignite the Reformation.
The word "ignite" is peculiarly apt.
Couldn't God have chosen a nicer person? There must have been a few people available who weren't vile anti-semites.
Couldn't God also have mentioned that burning Catholics alive isn't very nice either?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-06-2007 3:05 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 41 of 65 (426243)
10-05-2007 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
10-05-2007 6:06 PM


Re: How ideologies form
All that is necessary for something like Nazism to arise... is an excuse, like hatred of Jews or hatred of science. You can tell who the "good men" are because they're the ones fighting such nonsense.
"Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets." - Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148
"Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance ... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp." - Bernhard Rust, Hitler's Minister of Education, quoted in the Volkischer Beobachter, August 25, 1933.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 42 of 65 (426255)
10-05-2007 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Dr Adequate
10-05-2007 6:41 PM


Luther's Philosophical DNA
Wow! I am getting an education on the character of this person "who God chose to ignite the Reformation"
I have to thank Herr Ray for bringing up this topic about Hitler for discussion. I suspect Ray is also finding a few things about his philosophical roots that he was unaware of - must be painful for him.
Here are some more choice quotes
Martin Luther writes:
Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads....
A first class superstitionist... check
Martin Luther writes:
This fool [Copernicus] wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth...
Avoids data and reasoning that threaten his world-view... check
Martin Luther writes:
The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes...
Even though they grow weary and wear themselves out with child-bearing, it does not matter; let them go on bearing children till they die, that is what they are there for.
Extreme sexist... check
Martin Luther writes:
What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church...a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.
Lying for God is good... check
As I read through these quotes I am amazed how well they compare to the same illogical deceitful stiff-necked ignorant and stubborn attitudes of theistic fundamentalist today; different issues perhaps or in different degree but similar thought processing.

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 65 (426256)
10-05-2007 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Cold Foreign Object
10-04-2007 10:39 PM


Let's not forget what Paul sayd:
quote:
...[The] Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and drove us out; and they are not pleasing to God and are contrary to all men.
...
[The Jews] fill up their sins always. But wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.
Then, of course, you sayd this:
The point is: whatever God says or does is righteous.
Message 130
...the Bible contains no factual errors.
Seems good to me:
Jews are not pleasing to God.
Jews are constantly sinning.
Jews are contrary to all men.
Jews killed Jesus.
Let the wrath begin.
The Bible, lacking its factual errors, seems pretty clear on the matter.
Jon
__________
1 Thes. 2:14-16; (Recovery Version)
Edited by Jon, : oops... forgot to cite source

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 65 (426302)
10-06-2007 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jon
10-05-2007 7:55 PM


The Little Maiden of His eye
Martin Luther was an anti-semite. That much is incontrovertible. However, your critique of the Bible is unfounded, as you will soon see.
Let's not forget what Paul says
quote:
:...[The] Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and drove us out; and they are not pleasing to God and are contrary to all men.
...
[The Jews] fill up their sins always. But wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.
Lets not forget that Paul was a Jew. A devout Jew, no less. A Pharisee even, among the strictest sect of Judaism!
Paul is not talking about Jews in a general sense here, Jon. He is speaking about the Judaizers, the zealots, the legalists. Are have you forgotten that not only was Paul a Jew, but Jesus as well, and ALL of His first followers?
Seems good to me:
Jews are not pleasing to God.
Jews are constantly sinning.
Jews are contrary to all men.
Jews killed Jesus.
Let the wrath begin.
"Come, O Zion! Escape, you who live in the Daughter of Babylon!" For this is what El Shaddai says: "After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you”for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye- I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me. -Zechariah 2:7-8
"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." -Romans 1:16-17
The problem is that most Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Moshiac. This is only for a season until the Time of the Gentiles is over. Eventually, probably after the Rapture--
"On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only Son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” -Zechariah 12:10
God has rebuked Israel countless times for their iniquity. No two ways about that. But He will never forget the pact that He's made for Israel.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : No reason given.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Jon, posted 10-05-2007 7:55 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 45 of 65 (426346)
10-06-2007 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by iceage
10-05-2007 7:48 PM


Re: Luther's Philosophical DNA
Let's not forget his position on slavery, while we're at it:
Martin Luther writes:
What, there is to be no serf because Christ has redeemed us all? What is this? This means that Christian liberty is turned into liberty of the flesh. Did not Abraham and other patriarchs and prophets own serfs? Read what St. Paul has to say about servants, who at that time were all in bondage. Therefore this article is directly opposed to the Gospel.

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