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Author Topic:   The Ghost of Hitler
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 65 (426402)
10-06-2007 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Hyroglyphx
10-06-2007 12:09 AM


Re: The Little Maiden of His eye
But He will never forget the pact that He's made for Israel.
quote:
Abraham believed God's promise and was rewarded with a right standing before God, or, as Paul calls it, "righteousness." In Paul's view, this promise was fulfilled in Jesus...
Lets not forget that Paul was a Jew. A devout Jew, no less. A Pharisee even, among the strictest sect of Judaism!
Yes, and then he saw Jesus and changed his ways:
quote:
Paul came to believe that a person could not be put into a right standing before God by keeping the Law; only faith in Christ could do this.
For Paul, there were the Law-abiding Jews”which he had been”and the Christ-abiding Jews”which he had become. I am not implying that Paul hated any of these Jews, or anyone, for that matter, only to point out that he was quite clear that the old Jewish way of salvation through the Law was pointless. He also discouraged Gentiles from following the Law as a means to salvation, since if through the Law they could gain salvation, then Jesus' death was pointless; for Paul, Christ was the only way.
Paul made a distinction between the old Jews who thought salvation came from the Law, and the new Jews that knew salvation came through Jesus. Remember, he doesn't accuse such and such a Jew of being responsible for Christ's death, but instead the Jews themselves.
...not only was Paul a Jew
Who had changed his ways; see above.
...but Jesus as well
So? What does Jesus have to do with Christianity?
Paul made a distinction. Paul blamed the Jews. Paul took responsibility for his acts as a Jew. Paul claimed he was forgiven by converting to Christ. Unfortunately, there was no forgiveness for the Jews still following the old ways, the ones who had yet to put faith in Christ. They were still "contrary", "not pleasing to God", "fill[ing] up their sin" buckets. He claims the Jews to be persecutors of Christ and His followers (1 Thes. 2:14-15).
Paul has made the distinction between the sinful Jews of old, and the saved Jews (and other Christ-followers) of new. This separation only widens with time, till Luther's declarations, till Hitler's genocides.
"Come, O Zion!
...
No two ways about that.
All completely irrelevant.
Jon
__________
Ehrman, The New Testament: A Historical Introduction 3d ed., 299.
Ibid., 296
Ibid., 289

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-06-2007 12:09 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-06-2007 7:15 PM Jon has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 47 of 65 (426416)
10-06-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dr Adequate
10-05-2007 6:39 PM


Adequately racist
Couldn't God have chosen a nicer person? There must have been a few people available who weren't vile anti-semites.
"Question" presupposes moral perfection exists.
We know for a fact that you are also anti-semite and a gutter racist.
Any person who accepts Darwinism is both. Darwin, by rejecting Genesis, said the Jews conspired to fool the world with a special creation origin. And since all Darwinists accept Wellhausen JEPD, which said school were converted Darwinists, it says the Jews conspired to fool the world with an early Mosaic authorship.
Decades later, their German ideologues, the Nazi's, educated evolutionists, said the Jews were in conspiracy to rule the world and they selected them for extinction (since "God does not exist and we are apes").
And, since all Darwinists believe in human evolution, this confirms what gutter racists you are. Africans do not resemble apes and Zaire pygmies are not quasi-transitional, but Darwinists say human evolution from apes originated out of Africa = gutter racism concealed "as science." We also know Darwinists caged Africans with apes early 20th century to exhibit human evolution, and we were assured the claim was based on evidence.
Apparently, God did not select you, Adequate, a anti-semite who thinks the Jews conspired to fool the world, and a gutter racist who believes in human evolution.
Ray
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-05-2007 6:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by sidelined, posted 10-06-2007 3:37 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 51 by Jon, posted 10-06-2007 4:12 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 53 by iceage, posted 10-06-2007 6:22 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 55 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-09-2007 1:19 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 48 of 65 (426421)
10-06-2007 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Cold Foreign Object
10-06-2007 3:05 PM


Re: Adequately racist
Cold Foreign Object
"Question" presupposes moral perfection exists.
Bullshit.It only presumes that there is a possibility of a person of less objectionable quantities than as that displayed by Mr. Luther.
Any person who accepts Darwinism is both. Darwin, by rejecting Genesis, said the Jews conspired to fool the world with a special creation origin. And since all Darwinists accept Wellhausen JEPD, which said school were converted Darwinists, it says the Jews conspired to fool the world with an early Mosaic authorship.
Please provide a step by step evidencing of these positions rather than your typical baldface declaration without support. Show a quote from Darwin where Darwin said the Jews conspired to fool the world please so that we may see the point you are trying to make.
Also please explain the statement that ALL Darwinists accept Wellhausen Jointly Exhaustive, Pairwise Disjoint is factual and show what you specifically disagree with rather than making unsupported claims that clarify nothing of your positions arguement.
Attack the idea not the people so that you can show that the hypothesis is wrong and that others will not be left with the impression that you have no arguement worth considering.
Decades later, their German ideologues, the Nazi's, educated evolutionists, said the Jews were in conspiracy to rule the world and they selected them for extinction (since "God does not exist and we are apes").
What humans do with knowledge has nothing whatever to do with the knowledge itself but with the personal inclinations of individuals themselves. Knowledge can be used but comes with no set of instructions as to how it it implemented. Knowledge is neutral, living people are not.
And, since all Darwinists believe in human evolution, this confirms what gutter racists you are. Africans do not resemble apes and Zaire pygmies are not quasi-transitional, but Darwinists say human evolution from apes originated out of Africa = gutter racism concealed "as science." We also know Darwinists caged Africans with apes early 20th century to exhibit human evolution, and we were assured the claim was based on evidence.
Please again show where the evidence for these things are by providing papers and correspondence where possible would you?
Apparently, God did not select you, Adequate, a anti-semite who thinks the Jews conspired to fool the world, and a gutter racist who believes in human evolution.
There you go again calling people horrific names. Your behaviour is Christian in your eyes I assume?

God does not exist until there is proof he does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-06-2007 3:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-06-2007 3:53 PM sidelined has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 49 of 65 (426422)
10-06-2007 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by sidelined
10-06-2007 3:37 PM


Re: Adequately racist
Show a quote from Darwin where Darwin said the Jews conspired to fool the world please so that we may see the point you are trying to make.
Darwinism says Genesis is false, and that Darwin discovered the real truth exposing the Jews and their origin lies.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by sidelined, posted 10-06-2007 3:37 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by sidelined, posted 10-06-2007 3:57 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 10-06-2007 4:13 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 50 of 65 (426423)
10-06-2007 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object
10-06-2007 3:53 PM


Re: Adequately racist
CFO
Darwinism says Genesis is false, and that Darwin discovered the real truth exposing the Jews and their origin lies.
This is a quote from Darwin then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-06-2007 3:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 65 (426424)
10-06-2007 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Cold Foreign Object
10-06-2007 3:05 PM


Re: Adequately racist
We know for a fact that you are also anti-semite and a gutter racist.
Any person who accepts Darwinism is both.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-06-2007 3:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 65 (426425)
10-06-2007 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object
10-06-2007 3:53 PM


Re: Adequately racist
Darwinism says Genesis is false, and that Darwin discovered the real truth exposing the Jews and their origin lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-06-2007 3:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 53 of 65 (426440)
10-06-2007 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Cold Foreign Object
10-06-2007 3:05 PM


Re: Adequately racist
Ray writes:
Question" presupposes moral perfection exists.
No but it should presuppose someone who didn't believe in lying for God...
Martin Luther writes:
What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church...a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.
Ray writes:
We know for a fact that you are also anti-semite and a gutter racist.
You just are not a very nice person are you. You are a credit to your superstition. This should warrant a good suspension.
Ray writes:
Any person who accepts Darwinism is both. Darwin, by rejecting Genesis, said the Jews conspired to fool the world with a special creation origin. And since all Darwinists accept Wellhausen JEPD, which said school were converted Darwinists, it says the Jews conspired to fool the world with an early Mosaic authorship.
Sigh it is not even worth picking this apart. I notice when you are backed into a corner you either strike out with insults or abandon the topic.
Ray the Blasphemer writes:
Apparently, God did not select you
Again you speak for God eh?
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-06-2007 3:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 65 (426449)
10-06-2007 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Jon
10-06-2007 1:48 PM


Re: The Little Maiden of His eye
quote:
:Abraham believed God's promise and was rewarded with a right standing before God, or, as Paul calls it, "righteousness." In Paul's view, this promise was fulfilled in Jesus
Yes, it was. But what does that have to do with God despising Israel?
quote:
aul came to believe that a person could not be put into a right standing before God by keeping the Law; only faith in Christ could do this.
Well, that's not entirely accurate. The Law is only the shadow of the real thing. Its like this: Suppose your on the side of the road, and a big semi-truck is barreling towards you. Which would you rather have happen to you-- the truck hitting you, or its shadow rolling over you?
The "truck" of judgment rolled over Jesus Christ, while the shadow remains as a reminder that the truck is there for a reason. Because if you don't accept the shadow, then full truck of judgment will be upon you. Those who reject Christ must live in full accordance to the Law of God. And since no one has been able to do that, no, not even one, then perdition awaits those who mock at it.
But aside from this, I'm having a hard time understanding how any of this correlates to your claim that God hates the Jews.
I am not implying that Paul hated any of these Jews, or anyone, for that matter, only to point out that he was quite clear that the old Jewish way of salvation through the Law was pointless.
It wasn't pointless then, and it isn't pointless now. Funny that I was just listening to a sermon on this discussion just the other day.
"There was something the Law could not do. The Law was like a mirror. You look at the mirror and it tells you your face is dirty. But you don't go to the mirror to wash your face. It won't take that dirt off-- you'll only rub it in more. And what God is saying is: I gave you the Law and your identity... but one thing the Law could not do is change your consciences-- what you wanted to do.
For you see, if we could get to God by the keeping of the Law, it would produce exactly the opposite of what He was trying to teach us. Rather than faith, it would take us to works. Rather than humility, it would take us to pride. Rather than take us to spirituality, it would take us to externals."
-Ravi Zacharias
He also discouraged Gentiles from following the Law as a means to salvation, since if through the Law they could gain salvation, then Jesus' death was pointless; for Paul, Christ was the only way.
Yes, Paul believed that the Halacha was not to be placed on gentiles as a burden, since Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law. Jesus isn't in the stead of the Law, rather, He is the Law.
What does Jesus have to do with Christianity?
Hmmmmmmm, you mean beside everything?
Paul made a distinction. Paul blamed the Jews. Paul took responsibility for his acts as a Jew.
Paul didn't blame Jews. He blamed the legalists for their lack of faith and understanding, just as Jesus did.
Paul claimed he was forgiven by converting to Christ. Unfortunately, there was no forgiveness for the Jews still following the old ways, the ones who had yet to put faith in Christ.
First of all, salvation is an individual choice. Many Jews have turned to Jesus as their messiah. However, God has said that Israel is still the little maiden of His eye. And in Zechariah, there is no clearer picture. A time is coming where they will come to believe. But things must come to pass first.
In eschatology, their is a chronology to be found. First, the Temple must be rebuilt. Where is the current Temple foundation? Well, under the Dome of the Rock-- a Muslim shrine, considered the third most holy. This must come to pass first. But Zechariah is clear that they will come to believe in Him whom they pierced.
They were still "contrary", "not pleasing to God", "fill[ing] up their sin" buckets. He claims the Jews to be persecutors of Christ and His followers (1 Thes. 2:14-15).
Yes, the Chief Priests, within the religion of Judaism, did much harm to early Christendom. But you must remember that it is not an indictment against Jews, as a distinct group of people. The charge is within the heart of those who have grown calloused with wickedness. This can and does happen to the most "devout" Christian. I'm sure you've noticed how joyous of an occasion it is at EvC when one stumbles. Well, its the same principle.
Paul has made the distinction between the sinful Jews of old
No, he makes a distinction between true believers and hypocrites. Jesus made the exact same kind of distinction. Its only people like Hitler, Luther, and apparently yourself, to come to such wrong-headed conclusions about what it all means.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : edit to add

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 10-06-2007 1:48 PM Jon has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 55 of 65 (426889)
10-09-2007 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Cold Foreign Object
10-06-2007 3:05 PM


Re: Adequately racist
Adequately racist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Couldn't God have chosen a nicer person? There must have been a few people available who weren't vile anti-semites.
"Question" presupposes moral perfection exists.
We know for a fact that you are also anti-semite and a gutter racist.
Any person who accepts Darwinism is both. Darwin, by rejecting Genesis, said the Jews conspired to fool the world with a special creation origin. And since all Darwinists accept Wellhausen JEPD, which said school were converted Darwinists, it says the Jews conspired to fool the world with an early Mosaic authorship.
Decades later, their German ideologues, the Nazi's, educated evolutionists, said the Jews were in conspiracy to rule the world and they selected them for extinction (since "God does not exist and we are apes").
And, since all Darwinists believe in human evolution, this confirms what gutter racists you are. Africans do not resemble apes and Zaire pygmies are not quasi-transitional, but Darwinists say human evolution from apes originated out of Africa = gutter racism concealed "as science." We also know Darwinists caged Africans with apes early 20th century to exhibit human evolution, and we were assured the claim was based on evidence.
Apparently, God did not select you, Adequate, a anti-semite who thinks the Jews conspired to fool the world, and a gutter racist who believes in human evolution.
Ray
And you actually said that.
You didn't just think that in the privacy of your own head.
You said it in public.
I was going to make some smart-alec remark, but there really is nothing worse I can do than just quoting you saying that.
You said that.
You really did.
In public.
Where we can all watch you doing it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-06-2007 3:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 56 of 65 (427005)
10-09-2007 1:09 PM


To expand on a point I was making in the O.P.:
bluegenes in O.P. writes:
Two human population groups living in the same place will inevitably mix over time unless they practice cultural separatism
Let's look closely at the history of the Jews in Germany. They've been in the area for around 1700 years. This is before the time that a group we know as the Saxons left from the area to come to England and, amongst other things, give us the Germanic base of the language we all use here. I'm pointing that out to put things in perspective.
In England Saxons, Celts, Danes and later arrivals, the Normans, all mixed with each other to make one tribe, the modern English. As soon as important cultural differences (like who was Christian and who was pagan) were eliminated, they mixed quickly.
Christians and Jews back in Germany retained their separate identities through all this time because they were kept apart by their religions.
The history is interesting. Have a read here, and note the zealous religious slaughter of Jews that went on at the time of the crusades. (The same thing happened in England, and Judaism was banned until the 17th century).
History of the Jews in Germany - Wikipedia
Now fast forward to modern times. Because religion is far less important to both Christians and Jews, the existence of Judaism outside Israel is under threat. 52% of American Jews marry non-Jews, and surveys show that only a quarter of the children produced from these relationships are brought up in the religion.
This means that Judaism in the U.S. is losing about 3/8 of its adherents every generation. As you can imagine, this causes religious Jews great concern. Three or four generations of this, and the Jewish religion in America will be a bit like the Amish; a tiny group of Orthodox believers who marry amongst themselves.
This same mixing process could have happened at any time in the history of Germany had the importance of religion died down.
I use that example to illustrate how it was religion that kept two population groups separate in the area that we now call Germany for an incredible 1700 years. As I said in the O.P., population groups living in the same area/country will mix over time unless they practise cultural separatism of some kind. Religion is only one kind of cultural separatism, but it's probably the strongest, most profound and most effective known to history.

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 10-09-2007 1:40 PM bluegenes has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 57 of 65 (427015)
10-09-2007 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by bluegenes
10-09-2007 1:09 PM


bluegenes writes:
This same mixing process could have happened at any time in the history of Germany had the importance of religion died down.
Not all Jews who identify themselves as Jews do so because of their religious beliefs. I know half a dozen atheist Jews who identify themselves as Jews because of their culture and inheritance. Lewis Black, I think, is one of the more famous examples.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by bluegenes, posted 10-09-2007 1:09 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by bluegenes, posted 10-09-2007 1:56 PM Taz has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 58 of 65 (427020)
10-09-2007 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Taz
10-09-2007 1:40 PM


T.D. writes:
Not all Jews who identify themselves as Jews do so because of their religious beliefs. I know half a dozen atheist Jews who identify themselves as Jews because of their culture and inheritance. Lewis Black, I think, is one of the more famous examples.
Certainly. And you can find third or fourth generation Irish and Italian Americans who have their ethnic identity. None of this will stop their descendants marrying people of different origins long before America is 1700 years old! During this century, more likely.
The highly artificial separation of European and African Americans is on its way out too, and soon it'll be as common to see Black/White couples walking down the street together as it is in more "natural" places, like London.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 10-09-2007 1:40 PM Taz has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 59 of 65 (428610)
10-16-2007 11:38 PM


Hitler and Evolution Claims....
In this post Message 24 by DiscipleFire an essay is referenced "Why Evolution is Wrong" by James E. Bancroft that makes this statement....
referenced article writes:
These evolutionary descriptions of cultural growth influenced Europe up to the time of Adolph Hitler, who used evolution to explain the differences and abnormalities of the 'inferior' races such as Jews, Gypsies, and Negroes
I am bumping this thread in case DiscipleFire or anyone else would like to defend this assertion.

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 60 of 65 (429204)
10-18-2007 8:11 PM


Re: message 30
I agree that he used Luther, this is not in dispute. What is in dispute is your refusal to see that it was slander and hijack by an Atheist in the process of murdering millions of persons. Since you refuse to acknowledge the context of Luther's profanity (theological) and not racial, but are engaged in a connection based solely on rhetoric, you are an anrgy hate filled Atheist attacking Protestant Christianity, what else is new?
Im not slandering anyone. It's not slander if it's true, Ray.
Blaming Hitler on Luther is slander of Luther and all Protestants. The degree of slander employed (which in this case is extreme) is equal to the degree that you hate Protestant Christianity. Since you are an Atheist-evolutionist we have an obvious explanation for your slander.
Ray
so am i to believe that all Atheist-evolutionists hate Protestant Christians, and that all murderers are atheists?

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-18-2007 8:16 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
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