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Author Topic:   Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 241 of 327 (370725)
12-18-2006 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by nator
12-18-2006 1:16 PM


Guess We're Done
So we're right back to square one and you haven't learned anything apparently. So I'm done.
Enjoy the season.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by nator, posted 12-18-2006 1:16 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 242 of 327 (370830)
12-19-2006 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by purpledawn
12-18-2006 6:58 PM


Re: Guess We're Done
We've never left square one, PD, because you haven't given very many straight answers to very straight questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by purpledawn, posted 12-18-2006 6:58 PM purpledawn has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 243 of 327 (370837)
12-19-2006 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by nator
12-18-2006 9:54 AM


Re: Safety
I mean, what nutrition does Comfrey provide? Black Cohosh?
And what other benefits do you get from Black Cohosh? None, apparently:
The yearlong study of 351 women suffering from hot flashes and night sweats found that those given black cohosh got about the same amount of relief as those who took a placebo. And those groups saw nothing close to the improvement in women on hormones.
Popular herbal treatment ineffective at easing menopause
And the study was funded by the National Institute on Aging and the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine - people who, if they had a bias, might be expected to lean toward the "alternative" side.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by nator, posted 12-18-2006 9:54 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by nator, posted 12-19-2006 11:09 AM Coragyps has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 244 of 327 (370854)
12-19-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Coragyps
12-19-2006 9:40 AM


Re: Safety
The thing is, the manufacturers and retailers of Black Cohosh will be able to legally go right on selling it as a remedy for those symptoms if they just put the little disclaimer on the box.
They shouldn't be allowed to, and that's what the lobbying effort was all about stopping the FDA from being able to do back in the 90's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Coragyps, posted 12-19-2006 9:40 AM Coragyps has not replied

Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 245 of 327 (426658)
10-08-2007 10:19 AM


Bump for LindaLou...
just a bump..... took me ages to find this. Maybe I should put my specs on when reading.

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 246 of 327 (426659)
10-08-2007 10:21 AM


Another bump
I've pasted Lindalou's response to Percy in the Holistic Medicine thread so that it may be discussed in detail here.
I mentioned this Percy, and as the purpose of this forum is debate then I'm not following the rules unless I'm willing be challenged and defend my position. I've needed a bit of a cool-off period. My apologies for getting emotional at times. Believe it or not, I did well with competitive speech-making in high school. The problem is that they never gave me any formal training, no lessons in logic, nothing. Maybe I got good at persuading people using anecdote as well as a sprinkling here and there of some quotes and information from prestigious sources. I'm trying to re-learn how to go about doing things while I'm here.
Having said that, I find myself in an odd position. I am refuting creationist arguments on another website. Here I am making myself look like an ass because I have views that are not always supported by the clinical study evidence required here, and indeed which are often in opposition to it. All I can say is that I'll give evidence where I can, and I'll explain where I can, though what I confess I'm working from is what I feel deep down is right. That's not at all logically defensible, I'm aware, and if people used that excuse then they could justify believing in everything from UFOs to the end of the world tomorrow. However, I have built my views on many things I've heard and read about and I don't tend to file them away for the purposes of debate. I'll see what I can find now to give what I've said some support.
Firstly, when I said a person is well protected against disease if they are healthy, what I meant was that they are less likely to suffer ill effects from the diease, not that they are any less likely to have the virus in their body. So I'm not in disagreement with anything you said about that. I'm glad you agree that good health enables a person to fight a virus off more successfully. There's plenty of evidence that disease is so widespread in developing countries because of poverty, resulting in poor nutrition and living conditions. My position there is that vaccinations are best until those countries can be assisted to improve the standard of living of their citizens.
In wealthy developed countries, this is a hazier issue in my opinion. Well-nourished children are not going to be so prone to the worst effects of diseases, especially if they are taking large amounts of vitamin C. I know that my daughter is in excellent nutritional health. The risk is small that if she does contract a disease like measles or mumps, she will suffer disabling effects from them. I do understand that the risk is not zero. However, as I have said, the risk of vaccination is not zero either.
To date no studies have been performed to compare human populations vaccinated and populations unvaccinated. No one can claim that we know for sure that vaccines are safe. The number that children receive has mushroomed in the past two decades. In 1985 children were vaccinated for 7 diseases. Now it's 16, for which they receive 37 separate vaccination encounters. Vaccines, as I'm sure you are aware, do not just consist of inactivated viruses. They contain substances like ethylene glycol (antifreeze), phenol/carbolic acid, formaldehyde, aluminum, neomycin, streptomycin, and thimerosal. Of these, thimerosal has received the most attention because it consists mostly of ethyl mercury. Thimerosal was withdrawn from many pediatric vaccines in 1999 as a result of concerns over the neurodevelopmental toxicity of organic mercury, although it is still used in influenza, diptheria, and pertussis vaccinations.
No studies have been done on the safety of injecting these compounds directly into the bloodstream, though there is growing evidence of the harm that mercury can cause. Why inject such a poison into a person? (For that matter, why put it in someone's teeth?) Babies who are only a few days old are being injected with these substances.
I am also concerned about the way the vaccine cultures are developed. They are grown and strained through animal or human tissue; for example monkey kidney tissue, chicken embryo, embryonic guinea pig cells, calf serum, and human diploid cells (the dissected organs of aborted foetuses, as in the rubella vaccine). The problem with animal cells is that during serial passage of the virus through them, the animal RNA and DNA can be transferred from one host to another and undetected animal viruses may slip past quality control testing procedures. This happened in 1955-61 with SV40 (simian virus #40) which has carcinogenic properties. All three types of Sabin's live polio virus vaccine were contaminated, though the "killed" vaccines were contaminated as well. The virus has also been found in subsequent generations, suggesting that it has been passed down from parent to child. You can read more about this here.
Some vaccines have used bovine-derived materials from the USDA's BSE list. A polio vaccine was recalled in the UK in 2000 over concerns about BSE.
There is also an issue about the effect vaccines have on the immune system. Injecting a virus, alive or dead, bypasses the natural lines of defense in the body. There has been speculation that vaccines could cause autoimmune diseases. Gulf War Syndrome could fall into this category. This article gives a more detailed explanation.
Contracting a disease often gives lifelong immunity. If we hadn't started vaccinating for rubella, then young women would not have to worry about it during pregnancy because the vast majority will have already been exposed to the virus and will have immunity. However, the rubella vaccine does not give this lifelong immunity. Arguably, the natural immunity conferred from the contraction of the virus is better than the uncertain immunity given by a vaccine. It's not hard to find cases where people immunized with any given vaccine, ended up contracting a virus they had been vaccinated against.
I repeat that these viruses are, on the whole, not as dangerous as we are told to believe. Certainly not to people who are in good health. You said:
Measles is not usually dangerous, but it is so highly contagious that in an unvaccinated society it would sweep through in epidemics, disabling the economy and seriously compromising public safety.
Was every nation on earth disabled by measles outbreaks until the vaccine was introduced? No. Are the Amish devastated by it now? No.
You mentioned chicken pox. The vast majority of people have been exposed to it by the time they are adults -- or would have been, before vaccinations. To my knowledge I have never had it, and I am 35. I have been in close contact with people who have had it, including my sister and my daughter. it's possible that I had such a mild case of it at some point that symptoms never surfaced. Do I want to be vaccinated? Given the sorts of concerns about vaccines that I have raised here, no. I eat a healthy diet and take my vitamin C megadoses. If I did contract chicken pox, I'm quite prepared to ride it out.
You mentioned diptheria. There are many different forms of non-toxin-producing, interrelated, relatively harmless "diphtheroids" that live with lots of other so-called disease-causing bacteria in our throats, on our skin, or in the environment, as you can read about here. It is environmental factors which are mostly to blame for cases of diptheria.
"The eradication of diphtheria will not come through the serum treatment of patients, by the immunization of the well, or through the accurate clinical and laboratory diagnosis of the case and the carrier followed by quarantine; rather it will be attained through the mass sanitary protection of the populace subconsciously practised by the people at all times." (JAMA, 1922, p. 682.)
You might also be interested in reading this extract from a 1912 book titled Leicester: Sanitation verses Vaccination. Close to home for me. It starts by describing "The Inoculation Mania."
That's a summary of my case Percy. It's why I believe that there's more danger for my daughter in being vaccinated than there is in her potentially catching something like measles or mumps. She's already received most of her vaccinations and I regret this; but at least I am informed about vaccinations now and can make good decisions for us both in the future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 10:29 AM molbiogirl has not replied
 Message 251 by AdminPD, posted 10-08-2007 1:35 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 247 of 327 (426660)
10-08-2007 10:26 AM


Original post
I've posted my initial post to LindLou here
Re: Vaccinations
I know Amin PD has asked us to take vaccine discussion to the appropriate thread, but I feel that this is relevant. You say
but at least I am informed about vaccinations now and can make good decisions for us both in the future.
Can I use a single example from your post to show that you are not quite as informed as you believe. If you go to the following site
Vaccine-Preventable Diseases - Diphtheria
you will notice that the tell you diphtheria vaccine is actually an inactivated form of the diphtheria toxin. This causes you to produce antibodies to the toxin and not the bacterium. Naturally occurring, non-toxigenic diphtheroids, by definition do not produce toxin. Therefore I find it hard to see how these bacteria will confer resistance to diphtheria toxin.
The problem with diphtheria is that the toxin it produces (an iron-chelating siderophore) is only produced when iron availability is low and it inhibits protein synthesis all round the body, producing pathological effects in the heart, kidney, gut etc. By targetting the toxin the vaccine ensures maximal protection from these effects. The genes for toxin production are carried on a bacteriophage which the toxigenic strains carry. There are non-toxigenic strains of Corynebacterium diphtheriae. these confer no resistance to the disease whatsoever.
I'm not trying to have a go at you, just to demonstrate that you can make yourself even better informed and make the right decisions for the right reasons.
I've only used a small part of your post as an example. If you would like to discuss this further, I'll meet you in the vaccine thread.

Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 248 of 327 (426662)
10-08-2007 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 10:21 AM


Transgenic Problems
LL, I know you find most of your info on less-than-reliable sites.
Please provide legit sources for these assertions.
The problem with animal cells is that during serial passage of the virus through them, the animal RNA and DNA can be transferred from one host to another and undetected animal viruses may slip past quality control testing procedures.
Source, please.
They contain substances like ethylene glycol (antifreeze), phenol/carbolic acid, formaldehyde, aluminum, neomycin, streptomycin, and thimerosal.
Source, please.
The virus has also been found in subsequent generations, suggesting that it has been passed down from parent to child.
Source, please.
Some vaccines have used bovine-derived materials from the USDA's BSE list. A polio vaccine was recalled in the UK in 2000 over concerns about BSE.
Source, please.
Arguably, the natural immunity conferred from the contraction of the virus is better than the uncertain immunity given by a vaccine.
Source, please.
There is also an issue about the effect vaccines have on the immune system. Injecting a virus, alive or dead, bypasses the natural lines of defense in the body. There has been speculation that vaccines could cause autoimmune diseases. Gulf War Syndrome could fall into this category.
Source, please.
It's not hard to find cases where people immunized with any given vaccine, ended up contracting a virus they had been vaccinated against.
Source, please.
Was every nation on earth disabled by measles outbreaks until the vaccine was introduced? No.
Source, please.
Are the Amish devastated by it now? No.
Source, please.
When you have backed up these bare assertions, I will respond at length.
Edited by molbiogirl, : ABE other questions

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 10:21 AM molbiogirl has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 1:15 PM molbiogirl has replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4299 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 249 of 327 (426691)
10-08-2007 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 10:29 AM


Re: Transgenic Problems
Didn't you check out any of the links I provided? That's where many of my assertions came from. As for what goes into the vaccines, these are facts. I thought you would probably be aware?
What exactly is ligit for you apart from PubMed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 10:29 AM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 2:24 PM Kitsune has replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4299 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 250 of 327 (426697)
10-08-2007 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Trixie
10-08-2007 10:26 AM


Re: Original post
The article goes on to say:
"When diphtheria was prevalent in a city in the days before immunization it was usual to find 2-5 per cent of apparently healthy children with bacilli in their throats at any one time. Since, on average each individual could be demonstrated to carry the organism for no more than a few weeks it can be calculated that most of them must have been re-infected on numerous occasions throughout childhood. Yet even in those days not more than 5-10 per cent of children ever suffered from clinical diphtheria, so that we can feel sure that on most occasions the presence of diphtheria bacilli in the throat did not produce the disease. Thereafter the process of active immunization proceeded as a result of casual, usually non-symptomatic infection by diphtheria bacilli and most children had acquired immunity before they reached their teens." (Burnet, 1972, p. 196).
Presumably there was some immune reaction to the toxin from the bacteria in these cases, otherwise immunity would not have been acquired. Yes? Maybe my original example wasn't as appropriate as this one.
Surely the best way to tackle diptheria is good hygiene? And an iron supplement, or injections, to help the body fight it when it does occur? This article also criticises the routine use of antitoxins and antibiotics, which prevent the body from developing immunity.
Edited by LindaLou, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 251 of 327 (426700)
10-08-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 10:21 AM


Revise Post
Molbiogirl,
For the sake of accuracy, please edit your post and copy LindaLou's message from the other thread completely including the links and the quotes as she composed it.
Also provide a link to her original message since your are quoting it.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 10:21 AM molbiogirl has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 252 of 327 (426706)
10-08-2007 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 1:15 PM


I read the (few) links you provided this morning when I made the prior post.
And, much as I suspected, they were less-than-reliable.
As for what goes into the vaccines, these are facts.
Then sourcing them shouldn't be a problem.
As you probably already know, whenever possible, it is best to support any assertions made in a debate with the best possible resources.
You have yet to do that here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 1:15 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:25 PM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 255 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:31 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4299 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 253 of 327 (426731)
10-08-2007 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 2:24 PM


I've given links as sources for my info. You say they are less than reliable.
Are you only wanting what is on PubMed? With vaccines being the sacred cow that they are, how likely is it that I'll be able to quote a batch of studies at you? It's generally accepted by mainstream medicine that vaccines are a "good thing." However there's a lack of evidence for their safety. Instead it is taken for granted. No one has to do studies on the consequences of injecting antifreeze, aluminum or mercury into my little girl for me to feel concerned about it.
This article discusses autoimmune problems resulting from vaccines in more detail. There is a list of sources at the end, which I believe includes publications in journals you would find acceptable. The author, Viera Scheibner, concludes:
The conclusions which follow the study of relevant medical and immunological literature dealing with vaccines and the adjuvants used in vaccines is that the absolute safety of these substances can never be guaranteed. According to Gupta et al. (1993), the toxicity of adjuvants can be ascribed in part to the unintended stimulation of various mechanisms of the immune response. That’s why the safety and adjuvancy must be balanced to get the maximum immune stimulation with minimum side effects.
My conclusion is that such balance is impossible to achieve, even if we fully understood the immune system and the full spectrum of deleterious effects of foreign antigens and other toxic substances such as vaccine and drug adjuvants and medications on the immune system of humans, and particularly on the immature immune system of babies and small children. Injecting any foreign substance straight into the bloodstream will only cause anaphylactic (sensitisation) reactions. Nature, over thousands and thousands of years, has developed effective immune responses; yet man, without respect for nature, demonstrably causes more harm than good.
Scheibner was pro-vaccination for almost 30 years. In 1986 she began to study Sudden Infant Death Syndrome and developed Cotwatch, a breathing monitor for babies. The results of the Cotwatch studies prompted her to start researching all aspects of vaccinations. She studied more than 30,000 pages of data published in medical journals about crib deaths after vaccinations. Based on her extensive literature search, Dr. Scheibner in 1993 published a 296-page book entitled Vaccination: 100 years of scientific research shows that vaccines represent a medical assault on the immune system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 2:24 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 4:31 PM Kitsune has replied
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 254 of 327 (426732)
10-08-2007 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 4:25 PM


Lindalou, Please Provide Support for Your Assertions
From your latest link:
NEXUS is an international bi-monthly alternative news magazine, covering the fields of: Health Alternatives; Suppressed Science; Earth's Ancient Past; UFOs & the Unexplained; and Government Cover-Ups.
Yup. Just as I thought.
For the third time, LL, please provide support for each of the assertions above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:25 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:35 PM molbiogirl has replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4299 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 255 of 327 (426733)
10-08-2007 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 2:24 PM


I don't have my original source for this info to hand; I was working from notes I wrote to myself in order to discuss the issue with my husband. However, a quick Google brings up this site, which is sourced from the 1997 Physicians' Desk Reference. You will find all the ingredients I listed there. Some of them are also listed as ingredients in the vaccines that the NHS wanted to give my daughter last year (I obtained the package inserts).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 2:24 PM molbiogirl has not replied

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