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Author Topic:   Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 256 of 327 (426734)
10-08-2007 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by molbiogirl
10-08-2007 4:31 PM


Re: Lindalou, Please Provide Support for Your Assertions
Which link are you referring to please? If you find the source unacceptable then I will find another source.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 4:31 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 5:27 PM Kitsune has replied
 Message 258 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 7:15 PM Kitsune has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 257 of 327 (426768)
10-08-2007 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 4:35 PM


Quack Sites
This is the link (Link 5 below) that I referred to in my last post:
This article discusses autoimmune problems resulting from vaccines in more detail.
Nexus Feb 2001 (Vol 8, Number 2) (Part 1)
ADVERSE EFFECTS OF ADJUVANTS IN VACCINES
Viera Scheibner Ph.D
molbiogirl writes:
NEXUS is an international bi-monthly alternative news magazine, covering the fields of: Health Alternatives; Suppressed Science; Earth's Ancient Past; UFOs & the Unexplained; and Government Cover-Ups.
All the links provided in your original vaccination post are less-than-reliable:
Link 1: Unlimited Satellite Internet | Is there any unlimited satellite Internet?
Link 2: http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-2-11/38052.html
Link 3: Diphtheria by Hilary Butler
Link 4: PART 13: THE INOCULATION MANIA
Come on, Lindalou! The Epoch Times? A book from 1912?
In addition, your last 2 links ...
Link 5: ADVERSE EFFECTS OF ADJUVANTS IN VACCINES--Viera Scheibner Ph.D. (Part 2 of 2)
Link 6: tetrahedron.org Page not found - tetrahedron.org
... are (ahem) questionable.
As I mentioned, Link 5 is to a conspiracy theory site.
And here's a partial quote from Link 6:
Examples provided by Dr. Horowitz in this historic lecture include: the origin of AIDS from corporate labs to gay Americans and Black Africans through experimental hepatitis B vaccines administered during the early 1970s.
Oh for the love of pete.
"Dr." Horowitz's PDR references don't check out, either.
The PDR is available online:
http://www.pdr.net

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:35 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Kitsune, posted 10-11-2007 7:32 AM molbiogirl has not replied
 Message 288 by Kitsune, posted 10-11-2007 9:35 AM molbiogirl has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 258 of 327 (426789)
10-08-2007 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 4:35 PM


A Second Request for Lindalou
Which link are you referring to please? If you find the source unacceptable then I will find another source.
While you're at it, please source these quotes Message 248.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:35 PM Kitsune has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 259 of 327 (426838)
10-08-2007 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 4:25 PM


quote:
Based on her extensive literature search, Dr. Scheibner in 1993 published a 296-page book entitled Vaccination: 100 years of scientific research shows that vaccines represent a medical assault on the immune system.
See, that's already a red flag right there.
Did she publish a popular press book only, or did she also submit her analysis of her extensive literature search and the conclusions drawn from it to experts in the field of vaccination?
My guess is "A".
You do know that she is a retired geologist with no training in Biology, virology, or immunology (other than a single year of medical school), right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 4:25 PM Kitsune has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by molbiogirl, posted 10-08-2007 10:28 PM nator has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 260 of 327 (426854)
10-08-2007 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by nator
10-08-2007 10:09 PM


You do know that she is a retired geologist...
Aw, now, Nator.
I get all my best medical advice from geologists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by nator, posted 10-08-2007 10:09 PM nator has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 261 of 327 (426974)
10-09-2007 10:41 AM


Measles Outbreak in Antivax Population
Measles strikes Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox community.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/910761.html
An outbreak of measles in Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox community has taken 40 victims, mostly children, the Health Ministry says.
"Many families don't inoculate their children for religious reasons and adamantly refuse to consider it," a senior Health Ministry official said.
Let's hope none of these children die.
A fall in the number of parents allowing their children to have the combined measles, mumps and rubella vaccine has been blamed for a resurgence of measles that has claimed the life of a 13-year-old boy.
The Times & The Sunday Times

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 1:30 PM molbiogirl has replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 262 of 327 (427010)
10-09-2007 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by molbiogirl
10-09-2007 10:41 AM


Re: Measles Outbreak in Antivax Population
Let's hope none of these children die.
This is the sort of scare-mongering statement that is often to be found in the media when something like this is reported. Fact: 40 people have contracted measles. Fact: none of them have died. Fact: measles was a childhood disease which was harmless in the vast majority of cases. If those people are well nourished, they should recover, and their immune systems will have been strengthened.
In your second quote you mention the death of a 13-year-old. This is one case. What was his health like before contracting measles? What was his diet like? The reason why there are so many deaths due to disease in places like Africa is because there is poverty which results in poor living conditions and malnutrition. These weaken the body and make it prone to severe effects of disease. If someone chooses not to vaccinate, they need to make sure they take steps to live healthily. As I have said, the risk is not zero, but it is not zero for vaccination either. No one knows what injecting antifreeze or aluminum into the bloodtream is going to do, especially to a baby; and no studies have been conducted with vaccinated and nonvaccinated populations.
I'll address the points above about the links at a later time, but I will do so. There is a creationist writing long waffling posts to me, and I'm on a course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 10:41 AM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by kjsimons, posted 10-09-2007 2:46 PM Kitsune has not replied
 Message 264 by LinearAq, posted 10-09-2007 2:51 PM Kitsune has replied
 Message 266 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 3:14 PM Kitsune has replied

kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 263 of 327 (427033)
10-09-2007 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Kitsune
10-09-2007 1:30 PM


Re: Measles Outbreak in Antivax Population
LindaLou, 345,000 deaths last year from measles which could have been prevented by a simple vaccination. It's true poor nutrition and lack of medical care makes the death rate higher, but measles is highly contagious so almost everyone exposed to it that hasn't been vaccinated for it gets infected. I think you need to read up on the historical death rates in first world countries for childhood diseases prior to immunizations, it's very sober reading.
Measles
Edited by kjsimons, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 1:30 PM Kitsune has not replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 264 of 327 (427036)
10-09-2007 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Kitsune
10-09-2007 1:30 PM


Re: Measles Outbreak in Antivax Population
From this article or March 2006: WHO
quote:
Global deaths due to measles fell by 48%, from 871 000 in 1999 to an estimated 454 000 in 2004, thanks to major national immunization activities and better access to routine childhood immunization, the agencies said. These measles mortality data, calculated by WHO, are the latest available.
Measles doesn't seem that harmless to me.
Admittedly, measles rates were highest in Africa as you mentioned but the infection and death rates decreased the most in that continent (60% according to the article). Do you think the general nutrition and sanitation increased greatly for 60% of the poor in that 5 years or could it actually be due to the increased vaccination rate among the population?
LindaLou writes:
If someone chooses not to vaccinate, they need to make sure they take steps to live healthily.
And the general sub-Saharan Africa population accomplishes this in what way?
LindaLou writes:
No one knows what injecting...and no studies have been conducted with vaccinated and nonvaccinated populations.
Lets try This article
quote:
Whooping cough is re-emerging nationwide and youngsters in states that permit parents to easily opt out of vaccinating their children are at increased risk from the disease,...
I guess that study is going on as we speak. Unless you are able to show that those particular states have poorer nutrition levels for their populace or that parents who opt out of vaccinations tend to undernourish their children, I think we can rule out varying nutrition levels as having a profound effect on this particular study.
How about here in a single town in Indiana. Note that almost all of those infected were unvaccinated.
Of course you are saying that the disease would not cause death if the nutrition of the patient is good. However, you can't rule out that these patients survived because there were good hospitals and doctors around. But what if none of the people in that little Indiana town had been vaccinated. Now how would the medical establishment deal with more than 30% of the population having measles? It is likely that some of those would be health care professionals.
LindaLou writes:
As I have said, the risk is not zero, but it is not zero for vaccination either.
As I am sure you have heard before, this is risk verses benefit problem. Risks to individual and population health are higher if people are unvaccinated than they are if vaccinated. This assessment is supported by numerous studies. Although citing these studies does little to console an individual parent who's child is adversely affected by a vaccination, it is still a good arguing point in support of continuing mandatory vaccinations for children attending public school.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 1:30 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 3:06 PM LinearAq has not replied
 Message 269 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 5:12 PM LinearAq has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 265 of 327 (427047)
10-09-2007 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by LinearAq
10-09-2007 2:51 PM


Grain of Salt Time
As I am sure you have heard before, this is risk verses benefit problem.
LinearAg, you need to take Lindalou's protestations re: risks with a grain of salt.
After all, this is a woman who buys the pseudoscience she finds on quack sites hook-line-and-sinker (about the "risks" of the preservatives used in vaccinations, etc.), and yet she pumps herself full of "chelation treatments" because she had amalgam fillings at one time (she had them removed).
Capiche?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by LinearAq, posted 10-09-2007 2:51 PM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 4:50 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 266 of 327 (427054)
10-09-2007 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Kitsune
10-09-2007 1:30 PM


Re: Measles Outbreak in Antivax Population
This is the sort of scare-mongering statement that is often to be found in the media when something like this is reported.
This paper uses stats from the UK:
Measles is a highly infectious and potentially dangerous disease. Before mass vaccination was started in the United Kingdom, measles caused an average of 100 deaths per year (1). Since the introduction of vaccination, vaccine uptake has risen from around 50% in 1968 to 76% in 1988. After the introduction of the combined measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine in 1988, vaccine uptake rose rapidly to a national average of 91% by 1998 (2), at which time the alleged side effects of the MMR vaccine began to be widely discussed. Although all of the claims of serious side effects have been refuted, there has been a decline in the uptake of the MMR vaccine in the United Kingdom leading to a growing pool of susceptible individuals (2). The drop in vaccine uptake has coincided with a number of large measles outbreaks (Fig. 1A).
If the current low level of MMR vaccine uptake persists in the UK population, the increasing number of unvaccinated individuals will lead to an increase in the reproductive number and possibly the re-establishment of endemic measles and accompanying mortality. In their attempt to avoid the perceived risk associated with vaccination, parents' behavior collectively results in a substantial increase in the real risk of exposure to measles.
Measles Outbreaks in a Population with Declining Vaccine Uptake
Science 8 August 2003: Vol. 301. no. 5634, p. 804
One hundred dead children a year.
Not pretty, is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 1:30 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 4:35 PM molbiogirl has replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 267 of 327 (427077)
10-09-2007 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by molbiogirl
10-09-2007 3:14 PM


Re: Measles Outbreak in Antivax Population
One hundred dead children a year.
Not pretty, is it?
Strange. When I asked you about the thousands of people who die every year from adverse reactions to drugs, and others who are crippled, you said that these were small percentages.
In 1994 overall 2,216,000 hospitalized patients had serious adverse drug reactions and 106,000 had fatal ADRs, making these reactions the fifth leading cause of death. (JAMA. 1998;279:1200 and 1216)
You told me yourself that people die from penicillin. I'd like to know why 100 deaths suddenly bother you so much when these other deaths figure only as percentages.
Secret report reveals 18 child deaths following vaccinations
Measles fatalities had declined significantly before the introduction of the vaccine.
I believe if parents in developed countries choose not to vaccinate their children, they need to make sure that the children are well nourished, and this includes vitamin C megadosing.
"But the ordinary child who gets measles, even the child with a moderate degree of malnutrition and so forth, if you give intravenous vitamin C supplementary to other forms of treatment, the response very often, not always, is absolutely dramatic If you get them early enough. You must get them early. If you delay, and they have been unconscious let us say for days, or a day or two, you cannot reverse it. The damage is permanent. If you get them early, give them this treatment and there is no problem. And that makes me very, very angry, because they talk about "Oh, we must stop these kids getting measles" and so forth. Well, all right, I can fix them if they get measles."---Dr. A. Kalokerinos, MD (International Vaccine Newsletter June 1995)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 3:14 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 7:09 PM Kitsune has not replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 268 of 327 (427079)
10-09-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by molbiogirl
10-09-2007 3:06 PM


Re: Grain of Salt Time
What's wrong with "chelation treatments" now? I use DMSA, alpha-lipoic acid, and a seaweed extract. I have to use the DMSA because it works, whereas other things I tried did not.
I had four amalgam fillings put in my mouth after previously having none. Two months later I developed clinical depression. I had the amalgams removed a few months ago and have gradually been feeling better with chelation. Some symptoms have disappeared completely. It's impossible for me to say for sure whether mercury has been a factor in the depression, but I thought that having my amalgams removed would do no harm, and possibly help.
You seem quick to dismiss the possible toxic effects of injecting mercury into the blood, and putting it into the teeth. It is a poison. The amounts considered "safe" in the body have declined over the years as scientists changed their minds.
From The Poison in Your Mouth, a BBC Panorama program:
Dr. LARS FRIBERG (Consultant, World Health Organization): No, there is no safe level of mercury. And no one has actually shown that there is a safe level of mercury. And, I would say, mercury is a very toxic substance.
MANGOLD (BBC): So there's no amount, in your opinion, that should really go into the body?
FRIBERG: I would like to avoid it as far as possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 3:06 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 269 of 327 (427084)
10-09-2007 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by LinearAq
10-09-2007 2:51 PM


Re: Measles Outbreak in Antivax Population
In Message 246 I said
My position there (vaccinations in developing countries) is that vaccinations are best until those countries can be assisted to improve the standard of living of their citizens.
What's more, I am not calling for an end to vaccination, or even for people not to vaccinate their own children. I am explaining why I made my personal choice and why I believe that choice ought to exist.
Were you aware that a strain of whooping cough caused by bordetella parapertussis causes the disease in 40% of laboratory-confirmed cases, and that there is no vaccine for this strain? You can read about it in this article from Medscape Today. And this article explains that there is no easy way to confirm the diagnosis of whooping cough, whether the cause be pertussis or parapertussis.
What leads you to believe that 30% of the population of a town would be devastated by measles at one time? This disease was present in generation after generation of humans prior to vaccination. Where is the evidence that it devastated healthy populations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by LinearAq, posted 10-09-2007 2:51 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by molbiogirl, posted 10-09-2007 7:13 PM Kitsune has not replied
 Message 275 by LinearAq, posted 10-10-2007 9:43 AM Kitsune has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 270 of 327 (427098)
10-09-2007 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Kitsune
10-09-2007 4:35 PM


For the fourth time ...
Lindalou, for the FOURTH time, absolute numbers mean nothing.
In 1994 overall 2,216,000 hospitalized patients had serious adverse drug reactions and 106,000 had fatal ADRs, making these reactions the fifth leading cause of death. (JAMA. 1998;279:1200 and 1216)
First:
The overall incidence of fatal ADRs was 0.32% (95% CI 0.23%-0.41%) of hospitalized patients.
Second: The ADR rate remained constant over time, despite increasing patient acuity and use of larger numbers of medications.
Third: These are ONLY scripts written in a hospital. An accurate number would reflect the ADR for ALL scripts written.
Antibiotics alone account for 304 scripts/1000 patients annually. In the U.S., that's 9.3 million scripts a year.
106,000/9.3 million = .0003%
And that's just antibiotics.
There are literally hundreds of millions of scripts written annually.
The real number is far, far below .0003%.
If you want to throw numbers around, find the data that show ADRs for ALL the scripts written.
Secret report reveals 18 child deaths following vaccinations
First:
That is over a four year period.
Second:
3 deaths are "unknown".
The report, covering the period between 2001 and 2004, details how one baby suffered a cot death following MMR vaccination in 2003. Two more infants were reported to have died after having the MMR jab in 2001, but the cause of death in both cases was unknown.
Third:
That's 4/year.
Measles fatalities had declined significantly before the introduction of the vaccine.
I'd like to see you find those data at the CDC.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
(Your link to a scan of an UNIDENTIFIED book page is suspect, to say the least.)
Finally.
There are 100 deaths per 100,000 per annual measles epidemic.
That is a MUCH scarier statistic than that .0003% ADR.
When I provided the 100 deaths/year, it was clear that this number referred to the annual measles epidemic.
When you throw out a number, it NEVER includes all the relevant data.
In addition, you continue to use sketchy sites.
Just because somebody scans a book page and says it's from the CDC doesn't mean it is.
It's not that hard to look up data on the CDC site, Lindalou.
How many different times and how many different ways do I have to say this?
Use legitimate sources.
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 4:35 PM Kitsune has not replied

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