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Author Topic:   Irreducible complexity at the microscopic level
Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 27 (426836)
10-08-2007 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kitsune
10-08-2007 5:26 PM


LindaLou writes:
Do signaling molecules, and genes, work in complex synergy like a computer?
While I can only talk in layman's term in regard to signaling molecules and genes, I know a thing or two about computers. Trust me, I can keep my computer on and start removing its individual components and still have a working computer as I keep removing the components.
Computers, like genes and DNA, are anything but irreducibly complex. In fact, I can't think of a single thing that is truly irreducibly complex. Until the creationists can point out an example of such a thing...

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kitsune, posted 10-08-2007 5:26 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 1:46 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 23 of 27 (427001)
10-09-2007 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Kitsune
10-09-2007 1:46 AM


Linda writes:
The thing is Taz, you do need certain components for your computer to work; remove one of those, and the system will not function.
Here is something for you to think about. Without a processor, is the computer really a computer anymore?
You've stumbled onto another reason why IC is bullshit. Of course the computer won't function because it's not a computer anymore once you've removed something that made it a computer. Same thing with the cell. If you remove the lipid bilayer, of course it's not going to function as a cell anymore because it's not a cell anymore.
A monitor, a keyboard (the system might work but you can't use it without those).
I beg to differ. I can write this entire post without touching my keyboard once. It might be tideous, but i can be done.
I think an IDer might reply to you that any equivalent vital components in a biological system would be equally devastating to the functioning of the organism if one or more was removed.
Sure, and that in itself is a strawman. Is it really a functioning duck anymore once you've removed the head? Just because you can remove a component that make it something else doesn't mean it's irreducibly complex like the way they say it.
I also want to point out another point that it has now become clear to me that you don't know about.
The ID's entire argument is if you remove a vital component it will stop working and therefore the whole thing is irreducibly complex which indicates a creator. I've been assuming that you know this is an obvious strawman, but I guess not.
Why is it a strawman? Because evolution doesn't mean adding a whole new component as is to the entire system right there and then. Evolution is about modifying already existing components to allow the system to better survive in the environment.
Try to think of it like the evolution of computer. The first computers had vacuum tubes. Then they had transistors which were a lot more efficient. Third generation computers (current computers) have chips. 4th generation computers will be quantum computers.
Computers didn't just appear on the market fully equipped with microchips. They went through stages.
When IDists speak of cells being irreducibly complex, they want you to believe that biologists claim that it appeared out of nowhere fully formed and functional with all the organelles, mitochondria, and microtibules. This is obviously bullshit strawman. The cell went through many stages of modifications. We know that lipid bilayers form on their own in nature. We know that given the right conditions precells can form on their own with their very primitive metabolism. Even precells have many stages.
Take a look at the eye as the most used example of IC. Currently, we have an example for every step of the evolution of the eye, from light sensitive cells on microorganisms to the eyespots on flatworms to eyes without components like the lense (nautilus) to our eyes. Even the eye have many branches of evolution. For example, the octopus' eye is a lot better than our eyes, having their nerves in the back instead of the front thus not interfering with the image vision.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 1:46 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Kitsune, posted 10-09-2007 1:18 PM Taz has not replied

  
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