Language and the Tower of Babel

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If humans (and language) were created by God, did language naturally evolve over the course of thousands of years, or did God suddenly poof all of linguistic diversity into existence in order to thwart the pesky humans who were trying to build a skyscraper and getting too close to his front door?

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Why not?

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If God created linguistic diversity, how do you account for the fact that language continues to evolve today and modern English is less than 1000 years old? And does that mean "universal" languages like Esperanto that try to unite people are sinful since they would be contrary to God's will?

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Like anything else, once things are created, and rolling along, they evolve.
I think that the universal language we had was more than just another language. I think it may have involved a different way of thinking, almost like another side of the brain. Not just that, however, but as I recall, there still was a spiritual element at that time. Angels marrying women, etc.Since the tower of Babel you refer to comes right from the bible, we should note also, from that book a few other things relating to the idea.
One key thing is that when the spirit is ADDED, as we see in the new testament, all people understand the speaker. In other words, adding the spiritual is what makes the common language.Conversely, if there was an added component back at the time of the same language, the way to lose it would be to take away, or separate the spiritual component!
A simple formula, and no long ages needed to evolve a common language.That is my take.

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Lack of substantiary evidence comes to mind. Also, that we now know God's front door isn't somewhere in Earth's atmosphere. Also, why this hasn't happened any time modern society has built skyscrapers.

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There was a level for the spirits not too high above back at the time of Babel. Why else would they build up to it? The angesls, as mentioned had sex and babies with earth girls even. Obviously there is no longer that level.

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Hrm. Using Acts to justify Genesis via Holy Ghost Babel Fish seems suspect to me. But if you accept a priori that the whole Bible is inerrant truth given to man by God, you can probably infer internal consistency from it. For the sake of argument... otay.

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Yes I can.

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So, would you argue that had humanity never tried to build the tower of babel, everyone today would speak the exact same universal language that was imparted to Adam by God? What ramifications would that have on something like written word if language were partially spiritual?

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Well, no. I happen to be of the opinion that Babel just happened to be at the time of a big change in the universe, I won't go into here. This also was the eime of the ice age, continental separation, mountain building, lifespan shortening, slowing of evolution speeds, plant growth. and etc etc.If there was no change, then, yes, we would still have one language.Oh, and for your last point, I include life. Yes. I believe we were endowed with the ability to evolve at creation, but the change at the time of Babel reduced that to a crawl as well.Edited by simple, : No reason given.

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Given that we know heaven is not just outside the atmosphere and the construction project was doomed to failure why would God bother to do what he did? Since man has been able to overcome the language barrier what point did the punishment serve?

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That is right, but not applicable to the time of Babel, when there was a spiritual level nearby. Period.

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This sounds familiar. Are there any barriers to this rolling along and evolving theory of yours?

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Well, the kinds would not turn into another kind. Since we don't know precisely what the created kinds were, there is a lot of leeway there. But man was a kind, so we did not come from monkeys, if that was on your mind.

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If what you are after is simplicity - It all started last tuesday. Takes a bite out of textbook sales though.

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No, I am after reality that meets the evidences, that is as simple as possible.

I will admit, that the picture is less than real clear on the lifespans.
But, it fits. No one seems to live more than 240 years after Peleg. Now, if he was born about a century after the flood, that seems to say a lot. No?
Correct my math if I missed something, but from Peleg, to the father of Abraham was only 222 years. That means, from a first glance, here, that Peleg was only deceased about 13 years (if he lived 209 years) when Abraham's dad was born!
That seems to take it pretty nicely from the older lifespans to the modern era.There was a big drop from Noah, of course, to Shem, and so on as well. Remeber, however, that Peleg was born when all those guys were alive, so the big factor still may be the split.From the graph, we can see that the bulk of the life span shortening came in the century after the flood, till the days of Peleg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Edited by simple, : No reason given.

Sure. About 4400 years ago. About a century or so after the flood. No floundering involved.

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please re-read what vacate wrote. you didn't answer or even address his point. you just repeated the same nonsense.

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why, if babel had no hopes of ever reaching heaven, would god be threatened enough to stop their work? if they could not reach heaven, because it was not a physical place just outside our atmosphere, couldn't god have just let them toil on in futility?

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Ah, I do not believe that Babel was really all that important, and, yes, God was not pleased that they would try to bypass the promised savior, Jesus, and get there by themselves. But I think that this happened to fall at a time when something else was happening ANYHOW. Something that the Almighty Himself, said would come down to man in 120 years. Babel just happened to be, (I think, unless I am way off here, correct it if you can) at the end of that 120 year warning! The warning that I calculate was something like 19 years or some such before the flood. That means Babel would be, if I have it close here, about the time of Peleg.

Only given long ages, and a bunch of other things that you don't have, except in your head.But that's another topic.

Exactly! The question is was there, then, or not, and how could we now know??? I say let's just believe God, since no one knows.

No, because Jesus was not born in that time right near the flood. There was promised a savior, since the garden. You may have heard that much.Many times in the bible, it is interpreted by a good many that Jesus was active, such as with the two angels at Sodom, or walking in the garden, etc.
This means He was the link to the spiritual, and eternal life we would need to follow, we could not simply climb up to the then present spiritual level of 'heaven' in our still sinful condition!!That is what I mean by trying to bypass the promised savior, and get there by the arm of the still sinful, fallen flesh.

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Non-sequitur. Please explain how this follows. If heaven was removed from earth's atmosphere and relocated, how could Jesus ascend into it? Was he human or not? Didn't he go to great lengths to prove he was still human after his resurrection?

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Heaven is still there, but not the part of it that was a level over earth. Heaven, or where the spirits live is now, as I understand it, is New Jerusalem. Since Jesus built that, I would think that there was another abode before that was complete, that He ascended to.Of course if we are talking spiritual abode for non heavenly spirits, that is under the earth. According to the bible. Obviously that is out of the jurisdiction of physical science.

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Possibly. Or this could be reading the OT with a NT lens, something I doubt the original authors intended.

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Doubt it all you like, if you look into it, you will see that God's son really fits the bill for many of the descriptions. The bible, old or new testament areas all fits together like a tapestry anyhow.

2-3000 feet high.Hell is still there, in the interior of the earth, of course. Science cannot detect it, because it is not physical only material there, but spiritual also, to house spirits! Our crude physical based instruments, like seismic waves, when they hit something spiritual and physical, say, like the outer core, would read it as something they can relate to. (like liquid) They actually have no idea.

I think the forum has a gag order on my being able to tell you how it works, sorry. They like to religiously stick to natural, physical things.I can clue you in, that carbon dating is based on present natural assumptions.

Out of "bounds"? You are welcome to your restrictions of the natural.Funny thing is, that the bible speaks of things spiritual, and that is out of your bounds of the physical. So, why bring up the spiritual, and PRETEND it can be bound by your absolute limitations???? No can do. If you talk bible, you talk higher knowledge than natural only knowledge. Either don't talk it, or get used to the idea that some are free free free from your bounds.Edited by simple, : No reason given.

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So anyone climbing a small mountain would be able to stop by Heaven for a cup of coffee? This is post flood remember, in the flood model the mountains have already been formed. You have not thought this one through have you?

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Anyone that happened to be settled near Boulder,Colorado would not need a tower, they would have to dig down to find Heaven!

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Well that depends on a few things. Was the level of the spiritual uniform, planet wide? Or were there some areas where it was? For example New Jerusalem is a certain size, 1500 square miles.Next, we need to ask ourselves how high the original mountains were, before the continental separation, which was, if you recall, over a century after the flood, as I calculate it!! Haven't thought this through, really, have you?

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You need to be clearer about whats physical and not. You said that Heaven was a physical place before Jesus moved it. I asked you if Jesus also moved Hell. So now you are saying that when Jesus moved Heaven (and made it spiritual) he also made Hell a non-physical place?

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Not sure what you are on about here, but obviously have some major misconceptions. You think I said Jesus moved heaven? I said He build us a city, and that is what most call heaven. Heaven is really just a place where spirits live. Or, conversely, hell, depending on what spirits we mean.I am not sure about that physical bit, and moving. Heaven in the future will be both together, spiritual and physical. It will move right down from space to earth as well.Oh, I think you may be referring to the spiritual level here, before the universe change that left us physical only?? If so,we are now separate. Whether we moved, or it, or some combination, or how it all works with the spiritual who knows???? We do know it ain't here no more.Edited by simple, : No reason given.

Try and follow here. The tower of Babel was long ago, after the flood. There is no spiritual level right nearby up there, these days, in case you never noticed. You might watch out for earthquakes, though.Edited by simple, : No reason given.