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Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: God as Artist | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Raphael writes: Actually, he made almost everything in the universe for a purpose(spiders eat flies, trees make oxygen, sun heats earth). And the Bot Fly (Dermatobia hominis) lays eggs in humans and mammals. I actually prefer not to think of the bot fly as intelligently designed, thank you.
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BattleAxeDime Junior Member (Idle past 5948 days) Posts: 30 Joined: |
God isn't really an engineer, because an engineer takes what already exists and uses it to create something with purpose. The Judeo-Christain belief gives God the title of Creator, because He brought into existance something that didn't exist.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Two: They know even less about art than they do about science. And three: what they do know they don't like compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
The whole paradigm of god as a designer = grand engineer is fraught with problems, not least of which are designs of questionable (to be polite) value. I suggest an alternative concept: God as Artist. The artist is not held to the same standard for things to work - their standards are otherwise: sometimes to entertain, sometimes to amuse, sometimes to educate, sometimes to just make people smile with appreciation. Well, I see God as an artist too, but I think it presents a problem for you. Since art is a deliberate act, then all the atrocities associated in the world is not allowed for the reign of free will to flourish, but for the "amusement" of God. Secondly, any involvement of God, whether for amusement, education, or entertainment nullifies every premise of evolution going through unguided processes. Where then would God actually factor in? "It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
I God is an artist he is certainly a comic one.
elyptical instead of circular orbits haphazard arrangement of galaxies a whole continent at the south pole of the earth
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Sheesh, everyone's a critic.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Since art is a deliberate act, ... You are no artist. This is not a true statement. Look up "happy accident" in Japanese art.
... then all the atrocities associated in the world ... False conclusion, even without the false precept. You are missing a(n assumed) premise.
... but I think it presents a problem for you. And we see, again, that your logic is inadequate to make this claim.
Secondly, any involvement of God, whether for amusement, education, or entertainment nullifies every premise of evolution going through unguided processes. Just because you want to make this conclusion does not mean it follows from your argument. It doesn't. Your (lack of) understanding the artistic process is noted. Please tell me how a mobile operates solely by guided processes.
Well, I see God as an artist too, ... Yet your god is supposed to be a hands on in every life control freak who is omniscient and all powerful, fully aware of and able to control consequences, so your arguments apply more to your belief than to mine. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
art is a deliberate act no, it isn't.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
I'm not being critical I'm being sarcastic
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
bluescat48 writes: I'm not being critical I'm being sarcastic Sarcasm is most effective when it's well aimed. Try using the reply button at the bottom of the post instead of the General Reply button. That way, people will know who the @#$% you're talking to. You can do quotes like this: [qs]This is a quote.[/qs]
This is a quote. or like this: [quote]So is this.[/quote]
quote: And if you look to the left of the edit box, a treasure-trove of special effects awaits you. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
quote: You are no artist. This is not a true statement. Look up "happy accident" in Japanese art. Do you rest your case upon Happy Art? Its fairly simple concept: You pick up a brush, dab it in paint, smear the paint on to the canvas in such a way that corresponds to the mental image in your mind... Art. You can't say art isn't deliberate. You didn't arbitrarily fall in to some paint and magically produced artwork. Its intentional. At the most, something may come out in a way that you didn't entirely hope for, but the main point is, you were there trying to create something.
False conclusion, even without the false precept. You are missing a(n assumed) premise. How so?
quote: And we see, again, that your logic is inadequate to make this claim. And we see, again, your inability of explaining why its inadequate. If my "logic fails," you have to present reasons why. That's generally how rebuttals work.
quote: Just because you want to make this conclusion does not mean it follows from your argument. It doesn't. It very, very simple RAZD... If God set anything in motion for some purpose, be it for entertainment, musings, education, or whatever, there is a clear desire for a resulting action that follows-- which will invariably factor out unguided processes altogether. Think about that deeply for a moment.
Please tell me how a mobile operates solely by guided processes. A mobile?
your god is supposed to be a hands on in every life control freak who is omniscient and all powerful, fully aware of and able to control consequences, so your arguments apply more to your belief than to mine. If my God were a control freak, you'd be on your face right now worshiping Him. My God is no such thing. "It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Please tell me how a mobile operates solely by guided processes.
A mobile? Tells me all I need to know. Your whole argument fails. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Discreet Label Member (Idle past 5064 days) Posts: 272 Joined: |
Do you rest your case upon Happy Art? Its fairly simple concept: You pick up a brush, dab it in paint, smear the paint on to the canvas in such a way that corresponds to the mental image in your mind... Art. I must ask, why does it seem 'art' the canvas forms like to utilize real conceptions for example, say a tree on a hill? Must art be actually drawn to be art? Can not art be the bare tree on the hill that isn't drawn, but the actual place?
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I must ask, why does it seem 'art' the canvas forms like to utilize real conceptions for example, say a tree on a hill? Must art be actually drawn to be art? Can not art be the bare tree on the hill that isn't drawn, but the actual place? Art comes from an artist. I wonder if you'd be willing to extrapolate such magnificence one step further to deduce that design comes from a Designer. "It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias
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Philip Member (Idle past 4722 days) Posts: 656 From: Albertville, AL, USA Joined: |
Hi Razd (and others),
"Artist" (IMHO) seems a *pondering* term:
Turning out thousands of copies of identical clay pots is not art, but incorporation of the "happy accident" can make the difference between pedestrian and art. ... Life is a work of art. Scriptures indeed cite God as "Potter" ... albeit, not slinging "happy accidents" ... Here the Potter predestinates, I'm afraid, as per Romans 8,9: Rom 9:21-23 (KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory ... The universe is a work of art.
'is', 'wss', and 'will be' a work of art ... so its evident. Scriptures state:Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. ... a very detailed design of an object does not necessarily display great creativity in art. A Definition of Creativity: ingeniousness , ingenuity , invention , inventiveness , originality. Seems to me, a 'happy accident' design oft involves (unrecognized) elements of immense creativity. E.g., 'Pissing a 'happy face' on the wall':Requires: creatively fashioned (1) tools, (2) techniques, and (3) materials: 1) That exquisitely designed drawing instrument (AKA, Penis) contains immense biochemical complexity that exceeds in harmony, symmetry and proportion, and by extension, creativity (beside sex) ... yes? 2) And possesses advanced biomechanical technique coordination (which seems, by definition, akin to being ingeniously fashioned biomechanics) to *non-creatively* 'squirt' a 'happy face'. 3) The drawing medium itself (AKA, urine we presume) contains rare-in-the-universe molecular and quantum 'fine' arrangements (H2O, Carbonaceous arrangements, etc.) that beg ingenuity. DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.
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