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Author Topic:   Language and the Tower of Babel
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 95 (427471)
10-11-2007 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by simple
10-11-2007 3:37 PM


That's not even a very well formed Pascals wager.

-x


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 740 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 47 of 95 (427473)
10-11-2007 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by EighteenDelta
10-11-2007 3:51 PM


call it what it is. A simple wager.

Personally, I prefer the kuresu* wager--why believe in god if we don't know?

*I'm aware that others will have formulated that idea/though well before me.


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bernerbits
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-09-2007


Message 48 of 95 (427500)
10-11-2007 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by simple
10-11-2007 3:43 PM


Re: Nothing but Babel
bernerbits writes:

(100 years after the flood in simple's chronology -- though that begs the question of where Jesus went when he ascended... if he ascended into space did he asphyxiate and die again?)

simple writes:

No, because Jesus was not born in that time right near the flood.

Non-sequitur. Please explain how this follows. If heaven was removed from earth's atmosphere and relocated, how could Jesus ascend into it? Was he human or not? Didn't he go to great lengths to prove he was still human after his resurrection?

Many times in the bible, it is interpreted by a good many that Jesus was active
Possibly. Or this could be reading the OT with a NT lens, something I doubt the original authors intended.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31177
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 49 of 95 (427503)
10-11-2007 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by bernerbits
10-11-2007 6:37 PM


Re: Nothing but Babel
Just FYI.

Didn't he go to great lengths to prove he was still human after his resurrection?

Strictly from a theological perspective, there is a difference between the resurrection and the ascension. Jesus as human post resurrection and as supernatural post ascension is not a conflict.

There is, of course, no connection between Jesus and the Tower of Babel fable and bringing in Jesus is simply a way to take stuff OT.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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simple 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 50 of 95 (427505)
10-11-2007 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by bernerbits
10-11-2007 6:37 PM


Re: Nothing but Babel
quote:
Non-sequitur. Please explain how this follows. If heaven was removed from earth's atmosphere and relocated, how could Jesus ascend into it? Was he human or not? Didn't he go to great lengths to prove he was still human after his resurrection?

Heaven is still there, but not the part of it that was a level over earth. Heaven, or where the spirits live is now, as I understand it, is New Jerusalem. Since Jesus built that, I would think that there was another abode before that was complete, that He ascended to.

Of course if we are talking spiritual abode for non heavenly spirits, that is under the earth. According to the bible. Obviously that is out of the jurisdiction of physical science.

quote:
Possibly. Or this could be reading the OT with a NT lens, something I doubt the original authors intended.
Doubt it all you like, if you look into it, you will see that God's son really fits the bill for many of the descriptions. The bible, old or new testament areas all fits together like a tapestry anyhow.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Vacate
Member (Idle past 2828 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 51 of 95 (427509)
10-11-2007 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by simple
10-11-2007 7:22 PM


Re: Nothing but Babel
Heaven is still there, but not the part of it that was a level over earth.

So God really did have to stop the construction. How far up would Heaven have been that you could make a structure out of brick and still reach it?

Of course if we are talking spiritual abode for non heavenly spirits, that is under the earth. According to the bible. Obviously that is out of the jurisdiction of physical science.

Did Jesus move that too? If not then its certainly in the jurisdiction of science. Its below our feet. It must be a physical place, unless of course, Jesus also upgraded it along with Heaven to be 'spiritual'.


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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 704 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 52 of 95 (427513)
10-11-2007 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by simple
10-11-2007 3:31 AM


simple writes:

Sure. About 4400 years ago. About a century or so after the flood. No floundering involved.

4400 years is when the magical time ended? So carbon dating works from then on? Britain was covered with settlements at the time, so where did all these people come from? And what language did they speak?


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Damouse
Member (Idle past 3133 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 53 of 95 (427553)
10-11-2007 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by simple
10-11-2007 7:22 PM


Re: Nothing but Babel
[qs=simple] Heaven is still there, but not the part of it that was a level over earth. Heaven, or where the spirits live is now, as I understand it, is New Jerusalem. Since Jesus built that, I would think that there was another abode before that was complete, that He ascended to.
Of course if we are talking spiritual abode for non heavenly spirits, that is under the earth. According to the bible. Obviously that is out of the jurisdiction of physical science.

Doubt it all you like, if you look into it, you will see that God's son really fits the bill for many of the descriptions. The bible, old or new testament areas all fits together like a tapestry anyhow.[qs]

as you understand it? from what source of knowledge do you derive this understanding from?

Out of the jurisdiction of physical science.... Funny thing is, these are the Science Forums. Which, if im not mistaken, mean that you must be able to support any claim that you make through science.

If its unexplained, it doesnt exist here. Your out-of-bounds-of-science excuse is not all that welcome.


This statement is false.

Yeah so i lurk more than i post, thats why my posts are so low for two year's worth of membership. So sue me.


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simple 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 54 of 95 (427589)
10-12-2007 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Vacate
10-11-2007 7:35 PM


Re: Nothing but Babel
2-3000 feet high.

Hell is still there, in the interior of the earth, of course. Science cannot detect it, because it is not physical only material there, but spiritual also, to house spirits! Our crude physical based instruments, like seismic waves, when they hit something spiritual and physical, say, like the outer core, would read it as something they can relate to. (like liquid) They actually have no idea.


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Replies to this message:
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simple 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 55 of 95 (427590)
10-12-2007 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by bluegenes
10-11-2007 7:42 PM


I think the forum has a gag order on my being able to tell you how it works, sorry. They like to religiously stick to natural, physical things.

I can clue you in, that carbon dating is based on present natural assumptions.


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simple 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 56 of 95 (427591)
10-12-2007 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Damouse
10-11-2007 11:07 PM


Re: Nothing but Babel
Out of "bounds"? You are welcome to your restrictions of the natural.

Funny thing is, that the bible speaks of things spiritual, and that is out of your bounds of the physical. So, why bring up the spiritual, and PRETEND it can be bound by your absolute limitations???? No can do. If you talk bible, you talk higher knowledge than natural only knowledge. Either don't talk it, or get used to the idea that some are free free free from your bounds.

Edited by simple, : No reason given.


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bernerbits
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-09-2007


Message 57 of 95 (427647)
10-12-2007 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
10-11-2007 7:11 PM


Re: Nothing but Babel
There is, of course, no connection between Jesus and the Tower of Babel fable and bringing in Jesus is simply a way to take stuff OT.
The person in question is already bringing Jesus into the Tower of Babel, and has implied that there was a physical heaven somewhere in earth's atmosphere at the time that is somehow not there now but is but isn't like it was then. The parallel to the ascension of course is to show that even as far as NT some people still believed heaven was a physical place in the atmosphere, so it doesn't make sense to say that around the time of Babel the reality of heaven being a physical place in the atmosphere somehow changed.

Jesus as human post resurrection and as supernatural post ascension is not a conflict.
This raises the question of -- at what point did Jesus cease to be human and become supernatural? But that is OT.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 10-11-2007 7:11 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 10-12-2007 11:06 AM bernerbits has responded

    
bernerbits
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-09-2007


Message 58 of 95 (427649)
10-12-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by simple
10-11-2007 7:22 PM


Re: Nothing but Babel
Heaven is still there, but not the part of it that was a level over earth.
Wait. Heaven is still over earth, just not the part that's over earth?

Heaven ... is New Jerusalem
And where is this? Inside our physical universe? Outside it?

Since Jesus built that, I would think that there was another abode before that was complete, that He ascended to.
So if I'm to understand correctly, your chronology is that God removed heaven from above earth at some point post-flood, then Jesus ascended into some kind of temporary heaven that wasn't above earth but still there, then when he was there, built a New Jerusalem where heaven currently is.

Doubt it all you like
In other words, you're right and I'm wrong. Not a great stance to be taking for debate.

if you look into it, you will see that God's son really fits the bill for many of the descriptions.
You don't think that maybe this means that things "out of heaven" could just be similar to one another? Assuming biblical inerrancy and all. Nowhere in the NT does it say that Jesus was those heavenly hosts encountered in the OT.
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jar
Member
Posts: 31177
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 59 of 95 (427653)
10-12-2007 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by bernerbits
10-12-2007 10:45 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
The person in question is already bringing Jesus into the Tower of Babel, and has implied that there was a physical heaven somewhere in earth's atmosphere at the time that is somehow not there now but is but isn't like it was then.

The person in question seems to post nothing but examples of Theology of Making Shit up and Science of Any Fantasy Imaginable.

But the thread still is about language and the Tower of Babel and so far none of that seems to have much to do with the point of the fable.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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bernerbits
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-09-2007


Message 60 of 95 (427655)
10-12-2007 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by simple
10-12-2007 5:44 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
So God actually built the molten iron core of earth to house unworthy spirits? It is hot, I'll give you that. But what about when earth gets engulfed by the sun when it goes red giant in a couple billion years? Is God going to have to move hell then or is the red giant sun going to become the new hell?

If we could split earth in half and cool it off, would we see tortured, immortal bodies lodged in there? Or if it's just noncorporeal spirits without pain neurons, how is it that they would "feel" the heat anyway? What happens to an unsaved astronaut who goes to mars and dies there? Does he go to the center-of-mars hell or the center-of-earth hell?

Science cannot detect it, because it is not physical only material there, but spiritual also
If spiritual things are always, forever, and permanently beyond physical detection, how can you possibly know they are real?
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