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Author Topic:   Language and the Tower of Babel
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4600 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 61 of 95 (427659)
10-12-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by simple
10-12-2007 5:44 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
Vacate writes:
How far up would Heaven have been that you could make a structure out of brick and still reach it?
Simple writes:
2-3000 feet high.
So anyone climbing a small mountain would be able to stop by Heaven for a cup of coffee? This is post flood remember, in the flood model the mountains have already been formed. You have not thought this one through have you?
Anyone that happened to be settled near Boulder,Colorado would not need a tower, they would have to dig down to find Heaven!
Simple writes:
Science cannot detect it, because it is not physical only material there, but spiritual also
You need to be clearer about whats physical and not. You said that Heaven was a physical place before Jesus moved it. I asked you if Jesus also moved Hell. So now you are saying that when Jesus moved Heaven (and made it spiritual) he also made Hell a non-physical place?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by simple, posted 10-12-2007 5:44 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by kuresu, posted 10-12-2007 11:18 AM Vacate has not replied
 Message 68 by simple, posted 10-12-2007 11:20 PM Vacate has replied

  
bernerbits
Member (Idle past 5945 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-09-2007


Message 62 of 95 (427665)
10-12-2007 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
10-12-2007 11:06 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
But the thread still is about language and the Tower of Babel and so far none of that seems to have much to do with the point of the fable.
We do seem to be getting sidetracked trying to make simple clearly elucidate his concept of Just Where Heaven Is and as such we're allowing him to lead the thread.
OK. We know how simple reconciles his beliefs with his reality, which was the thrust of my original post, even though a lot of us have been hounding him to elaborate because his beliefs don't make much sense to us and he seems to keep changing his answer. Perhaps we continue discussion of the location of heaven and hell (except as relates directly to ToB) in a separate thread?
Edited by bernerbits, : added a qualifying parenthetical statement

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 10-12-2007 11:06 AM jar has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 63 of 95 (427667)
10-12-2007 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by simple
10-12-2007 5:44 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
simple
Hell is still there, in the interior of the earth, of course. Science cannot detect it, because it is not physical only material there, but spiritual also, to house spirits!
If it cannot be detected ,then, how do you know it is in the interior of the earth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by simple, posted 10-12-2007 5:44 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by simple, posted 10-12-2007 11:28 PM sidelined has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 64 of 95 (427669)
10-12-2007 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Vacate
10-12-2007 11:10 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
Anyone that happened to be settled near Boulder,Colorado would not need a tower, they would have to dig down to find Heaven!
You know, this might just explain why this place is really quite cool.
It also makes me wonder why the fundies in the area aren't financing a mining operation. After all, who wouldn't pay to get to heaven earlier?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 65 of 95 (427673)
10-12-2007 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by simple
10-12-2007 5:44 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
2-3000 feet high.
All right.
Aside from antennae that reach just over 2,000 feet high, we have a new tower being built in Dubai. Here it is:
Burj Khalifa - Wikipedia
Maximum height (including antenna and spire) = 2,684 feet.
Minimum height = 2,111 feet.
There are rumors the building will actually break 700 meters, pushing it ever closer to that 3,000 mark.
Both would break the potential heaven zone. Will god destroy this tower?
Edited by kuresu, : added a couple of sentences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by simple, posted 10-12-2007 5:44 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by bernerbits, posted 10-12-2007 11:37 AM kuresu has not replied
 Message 69 by simple, posted 10-12-2007 11:25 PM kuresu has not replied

  
bernerbits
Member (Idle past 5945 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-09-2007


Message 66 of 95 (427676)
10-12-2007 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by kuresu
10-12-2007 11:18 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
It also makes me wonder why the fundies in the area aren't financing a mining operation.
Possibly because not even most fundies believe what simple does about the physical location of heaven?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by kuresu, posted 10-12-2007 11:18 AM kuresu has not replied

  
bernerbits
Member (Idle past 5945 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-09-2007


Message 67 of 95 (427677)
10-12-2007 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by kuresu
10-12-2007 11:24 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
Both would break the potential heaven zone. Will god destroy this tower?
No, he'll just turn UAE into a multicultural nation to thwart their plans. Oh wait.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by kuresu, posted 10-12-2007 11:24 AM kuresu has not replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 95 (427785)
10-12-2007 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Vacate
10-12-2007 11:10 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
quote:
So anyone climbing a small mountain would be able to stop by Heaven for a cup of coffee? This is post flood remember, in the flood model the mountains have already been formed. You have not thought this one through have you?
Anyone that happened to be settled near Boulder,Colorado would not need a tower, they would have to dig down to find Heaven!
Well that depends on a few things. Was the level of the spiritual uniform, planet wide? Or were there some areas where it was? For example New Jerusalem is a certain size, 1500 square miles.
Next, we need to ask ourselves how high the original mountains were, before the continental separation, which was, if you recall, over a century after the flood, as I calculate it!! Haven't thought this through, really, have you?
quote:
You need to be clearer about whats physical and not. You said that Heaven was a physical place before Jesus moved it. I asked you if Jesus also moved Hell. So now you are saying that when Jesus moved Heaven (and made it spiritual) he also made Hell a non-physical place?
Not sure what you are on about here, but obviously have some major misconceptions. You think I said Jesus moved heaven? I said He build us a city, and that is what most call heaven. Heaven is really just a place where spirits live. Or, conversely, hell, depending on what spirits we mean.
I am not sure about that physical bit, and moving. Heaven in the future will be both together, spiritual and physical. It will move right down from space to earth as well.
Oh, I think you may be referring to the spiritual level here, before the universe change that left us physical only?? If so,we are now separate. Whether we moved, or it, or some combination, or how it all works with the spiritual who knows???? We do know it ain't here no more.
Edited by simple, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Vacate, posted 10-12-2007 11:10 AM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 95 (427786)
10-12-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by kuresu
10-12-2007 11:24 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
Try and follow here. The tower of Babel was long ago, after the flood. There is no spiritual level right nearby up there, these days, in case you never noticed. You might watch out for earthquakes, though.
Edited by simple, : No reason given.

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 Message 65 by kuresu, posted 10-12-2007 11:24 AM kuresu has not replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 95 (427787)
10-12-2007 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by sidelined
10-12-2007 11:16 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
Because it is a spiritual place, and the bible deals quite well in most things spiritual, where science is restricted to just the present natural. The reason many do not know, is that they are PO box bound.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by sidelined, posted 10-12-2007 11:16 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by sidelined, posted 10-13-2007 12:16 AM simple has replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 95 (427788)
10-12-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by bernerbits
10-12-2007 11:07 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
quote:
So God actually built the molten iron core of earth to house unworthy spirits? It is hot, I'll give you that. But what about when earth gets engulfed by the sun when it goes red giant in a couple billion years? Is God going to have to move hell then or is the red giant sun going to become the new hell?
I don't believe it is that hot. You need a big bang, and millions of years, and decay, and all sorts of imaginary things to cook up a hot core. But that is another topic.
quote:
If we could split earth in half and cool it off, would we see tortured, immortal bodies lodged in there? Or if it's just noncorporeal spirits without pain neurons, how is it that they would "feel" the heat anyway? What happens to an unsaved astronaut who goes to mars and dies there? Does he go to the center-of-mars hell or the center-of-earth hell?
You seem to be thinking of the lake of fire in the future. I don't believe hell is anything like that, probably more like a hospital. But, again, that is off topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by bernerbits, posted 10-12-2007 11:07 AM bernerbits has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by kuresu, posted 10-13-2007 2:53 AM simple has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 72 of 95 (427796)
10-13-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by simple
10-12-2007 11:28 PM


Re: Nothing but Babel
simple
Because it is a spiritual place, and the bible deals quite well in most things spiritual, where science is restricted to just the present natural
How do you know it is a spiritual place? For that matter what is it about the bible that makes you think it is dealing with "spiritual" matters at all?
The reason many do not know, is that they are PO box bound.
You do not strike me as showing any greater capability in the area of discernment and ,in fact, you do strike me as rather confused. You make claims which you can offer no evidence for, you make claims for phenomena you cannot demonstrate, and yet you exude a confidence in your assessments that are far beyond reasonable given your arguments.
Being as you are not PO box bound perhaps you are missing out on a lot of valuable mail that could be getting through.

God does not exist until there is proof he does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by simple, posted 10-12-2007 11:28 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by simple, posted 10-13-2007 2:45 AM sidelined has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4600 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 73 of 95 (427800)
10-13-2007 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by simple
10-12-2007 11:20 PM


Re: Nothing but Babel
Well that depends on a few things. Was the level of the spiritual uniform, planet wide? Or were there some areas where it was? For example New Jerusalem is a certain size, 1500 square miles.
My mistake, its hard to keep up when you are pulling this stuff out of your ass. So what areas exactly was Heaven located at the 2-3000 foot level? (Before Jesus ascended and moved it)
Next, we need to ask ourselves how high the original mountains were
So how high where they then? *Hint* Mt. Ararat is 16,854 ft
before the continental separation, which was, if you recall, over a century after the flood, as I calculate it
If thats how you calculate it then how am I supposed to recall it? Care to propose a topic that would show a model for why the continents suddenly start racing around?
Haven't thought this through, really, have you?
Of course not, I prefer to let you lead me through your fantasy.
You think I said Jesus moved heaven?
You did say that.
Simple in Message 50 writes:
Heaven is still there, but not the part of it that was a level over earth. Heaven, or where the spirits live is now, as I understand it, is New Jerusalem. Since Jesus built that, I would think that there was another abode before that was complete, that He ascended to.
Was there, not there now. Jesus built a new Heaven, (where the spirits live now, the newer abode) after ascending to the old Heaven.
I said He build us a city, and that is what most call heaven. Heaven is really just a place where spirits live.
I don't really care who calls it that or who lives there. I am simply repeating what you have said already and pointing out the obvious logical errors in your story. I can always look back and keep quoting you regardless how you may attempt to change what you said.
I am not sure about that physical bit, and moving.
I know, thats why I have pointed it out. Your story is based on bad logic and continual attempts to shift your wording.
Oh, I think you may be referring to the spiritual level here, before the universe change that left us physical only?
Nope, still referring to the physical Heaven that you said was 2-3000 feet above the Earth. Conversely, I am also pointing out that you have not specified if Jesus also moved Hell or made it non-physical as he did with Heaven. If he did neither then Hell is completely within the realm of science, as I have already suggested.
I don't believe it is that hot.
How hot is the core then? Just curious
Edited by Vacate, : Journey to the center of the Earth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by simple, posted 10-12-2007 11:20 PM simple has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 74 of 95 (427811)
10-13-2007 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by simple
10-11-2007 3:43 AM


Ah, I do not believe that Babel was really all that important,
important enough for god to mess them up.
and, yes, God was not pleased that they would try to bypass the promised savior, Jesus, and get there by themselves.
i'm sorry, where was jesus mentioned in this text? i see nothing that says anything like that in genesis 11. and in any case, lots of people got to heaven on their own accord before jesus. why, i can think of two of the top of my head: enoch and elijah. or, don't you read the bible?
Something that the Almighty Himself, said would come down to man in 120 years.
check the math on that again. we don't know when the "120 years" proclaimation was, but it took noah 100 of those to build the ark. the best reading is that it was 120 years until the flood.
the rest is just stuff you're making up. again.
The warning that I calculate was something like 19 years or some such before the flood.
read it again. it takes noah 100 years to build the ark. after he's warned by god. which is after the "120 years" statement.
That means Babel would be, if I have it close here, about the time of Peleg.
...that was actually a given. "peleg" means "division." he was named for the division at babel. the 120 years stuff is just not in reference to this event.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by simple, posted 10-11-2007 3:43 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by simple, posted 10-13-2007 2:56 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 95 (427819)
10-13-2007 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by sidelined
10-13-2007 12:16 AM


Re: Nothing but Babel
quote:
How do you know it is a spiritual place? For that matter what is it about the bible that makes you think it is dealing with "spiritual" matters at all?
It is where the spirits of just men made perfect are, according to the bible, as well as God, and the angels. The bible says God is a spirit. That I take as a clue. The angels are spirits, that also I take as a clue. We have spirits, and go there when we die, another clue. Need more?????? [quote] You do not strike me as showing any greater capability in the area of discernment and ,in fact, you do strike me as rather confused. You make claims which you can offer no evidence for, you make claims for phenomena you cannot demonstrate, and yet you exude a confidence in your assessments that are far beyond reasonable given your arguments. That might sound good to you, except that the bible says there really are spirits, a flying throne, and a Christmas star. You have presented no science or bible against these things. Now, before you lecture on reason, remember you got nothin!
God does exist until there is proof he does not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by sidelined, posted 10-13-2007 12:16 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
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