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Author Topic:   God as Artist
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 16 of 32 (424961)
09-29-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Raphael
09-29-2007 4:54 AM


Designed for a Purpose
Raphael writes:
Actually, he made almost everything in the universe for a purpose(spiders eat flies, trees make oxygen, sun heats earth).
And the Bot Fly (Dermatobia hominis) lays eggs in humans and mammals.
I actually prefer not to think of the bot fly as intelligently designed, thank you.

This message is a reply to:
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BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5948 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 17 of 32 (424992)
09-29-2007 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-01-2007 3:32 PM


No not a designer or an engineer
God isn't really an engineer, because an engineer takes what already exists and uses it to create something with purpose. The Judeo-Christain belief gives God the title of Creator, because He brought into existance something that didn't exist.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 32 (425003)
09-29-2007 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Archer Opteryx
09-29-2007 11:59 AM


Re: They don't know anything about science, but they know what they like.
Two: They know even less about art than they do about science.
And three: what they do know they don't like

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 32 (426061)
10-04-2007 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-01-2007 3:32 PM


God: To intervene or not to intervene? That is the question
The whole paradigm of god as a designer = grand engineer is fraught with problems, not least of which are designs of questionable (to be polite) value.
I suggest an alternative concept: God as Artist.
The artist is not held to the same standard for things to work - their standards are otherwise: sometimes to entertain, sometimes to amuse, sometimes to educate, sometimes to just make people smile with appreciation.
Well, I see God as an artist too, but I think it presents a problem for you. Since art is a deliberate act, then all the atrocities associated in the world is not allowed for the reign of free will to flourish, but for the "amusement" of God.
Secondly, any involvement of God, whether for amusement, education, or entertainment nullifies every premise of evolution going through unguided processes. Where then would God actually factor in?

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2007 5:47 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 23 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-11-2007 7:47 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 20 of 32 (427479)
10-11-2007 4:16 PM


I God is an artist he is certainly a comic one.
elyptical instead of circular orbits
haphazard arrangement of galaxies
a whole continent at the south pole of the earth

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 21 of 32 (427482)
10-11-2007 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by bluescat48
10-11-2007 4:16 PM


Sheesh, everyone's a critic.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 32 (427493)
10-11-2007 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hyroglyphx
10-04-2007 10:11 PM


NJ fails at logic again
Since art is a deliberate act, ...
You are no artist. This is not a true statement. Look up "happy accident" in Japanese art.
... then all the atrocities associated in the world ...
False conclusion, even without the false precept. You are missing a(n assumed) premise.
... but I think it presents a problem for you.
And we see, again, that your logic is inadequate to make this claim.
Secondly, any involvement of God, whether for amusement, education, or entertainment nullifies every premise of evolution going through unguided processes.
Just because you want to make this conclusion does not mean it follows from your argument. It doesn't. Your (lack of) understanding the artistic process is noted. Please tell me how a mobile operates solely by guided processes.
Well, I see God as an artist too, ...
Yet your god is supposed to be a hands on in every life control freak who is omniscient and all powerful, fully aware of and able to control consequences, so your arguments apply more to your belief than to mine.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-04-2007 10:11 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-12-2007 7:19 PM RAZD has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 23 of 32 (427516)
10-11-2007 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hyroglyphx
10-04-2007 10:11 PM


Re: God: To intervene or not to intervene? That is the question
art is a deliberate act
no, it isn't.

This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 24 of 32 (427619)
10-12-2007 9:08 AM


I'm not being critical I'm being sarcastic

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 25 of 32 (427701)
10-12-2007 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by bluescat48
10-12-2007 9:08 AM


bluescat48 writes:
I'm not being critical I'm being sarcastic
Sarcasm is most effective when it's well aimed.
Try using the reply button at the bottom of the post instead of the General Reply button. That way, people will know who the @#$% you're talking to.
You can do quotes like this: [qs]This is a quote.[/qs]
This is a quote.
or like this: [quote]So is this.[/quote]
quote:
So is this.
And if you look to the left of the edit box, a treasure-trove of special effects awaits you.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 32 (427761)
10-12-2007 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by RAZD
10-11-2007 5:47 PM


Re: NJ fails at logic again
quote:
Since art is a deliberate act
You are no artist. This is not a true statement. Look up "happy accident" in Japanese art.
Do you rest your case upon Happy Art? Its fairly simple concept: You pick up a brush, dab it in paint, smear the paint on to the canvas in such a way that corresponds to the mental image in your mind... Art.
You can't say art isn't deliberate. You didn't arbitrarily fall in to some paint and magically produced artwork. Its intentional. At the most, something may come out in a way that you didn't entirely hope for, but the main point is, you were there trying to create something.
False conclusion, even without the false precept. You are missing a(n assumed) premise.
How so?
quote:
but I think it presents a problem for you.
And we see, again, that your logic is inadequate to make this claim.
And we see, again, your inability of explaining why its inadequate. If my "logic fails," you have to present reasons why. That's generally how rebuttals work.
quote:
Secondly, any involvement of God, whether for amusement, education, or entertainment nullifies every premise of evolution going through unguided processes.
Just because you want to make this conclusion does not mean it follows from your argument. It doesn't.
It very, very simple RAZD... If God set anything in motion for some purpose, be it for entertainment, musings, education, or whatever, there is a clear desire for a resulting action that follows-- which will invariably factor out unguided processes altogether. Think about that deeply for a moment.
Please tell me how a mobile operates solely by guided processes.
A mobile?
your god is supposed to be a hands on in every life control freak who is omniscient and all powerful, fully aware of and able to control consequences, so your arguments apply more to your belief than to mine.
If my God were a control freak, you'd be on your face right now worshiping Him. My God is no such thing.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2007 5:47 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 10-12-2007 8:23 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 28 by Discreet Label, posted 10-12-2007 10:18 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 27 of 32 (427769)
10-12-2007 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Hyroglyphx
10-12-2007 7:19 PM


Re: NJ fails at logic again
Please tell me how a mobile operates solely by guided processes.
A mobile?
Tells me all I need to know. Your whole argument fails.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-12-2007 7:19 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 28 of 32 (427780)
10-12-2007 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Hyroglyphx
10-12-2007 7:19 PM


Re: NJ fails at logic again
Do you rest your case upon Happy Art? Its fairly simple concept: You pick up a brush, dab it in paint, smear the paint on to the canvas in such a way that corresponds to the mental image in your mind... Art.
I must ask, why does it seem 'art' the canvas forms like to utilize real conceptions for example, say a tree on a hill? Must art be actually drawn to be art? Can not art be the bare tree on the hill that isn't drawn, but the actual place?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-12-2007 7:19 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-13-2007 12:11 AM Discreet Label has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 32 (427794)
10-13-2007 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Discreet Label
10-12-2007 10:18 PM


Re: NJ fails at logic again
I must ask, why does it seem 'art' the canvas forms like to utilize real conceptions for example, say a tree on a hill? Must art be actually drawn to be art? Can not art be the bare tree on the hill that isn't drawn, but the actual place?
Art comes from an artist. I wonder if you'd be willing to extrapolate such magnificence one step further to deduce that design comes from a Designer.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Discreet Label, posted 10-12-2007 10:18 PM Discreet Label has replied

Replies to this message:
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 30 of 32 (427837)
10-13-2007 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-01-2007 3:32 PM


God as Artist
Hi Razd (and others),
"Artist" (IMHO) seems a *pondering* term:
Turning out thousands of copies of identical clay pots is not art, but incorporation of the "happy accident" can make the difference between pedestrian and art. ... Life is a work of art.
Scriptures indeed cite God as "Potter" ... albeit, not slinging "happy accidents" ... Here the Potter predestinates, I'm afraid, as per Romans 8,9:
Rom 9:21-23 (KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory ...
The universe is a work of art.
'is', 'wss', and 'will be' a work of art ... so its evident. Scriptures state:
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
... a very detailed design of an object does not necessarily display great creativity in art.
A Definition of Creativity: ingeniousness , ingenuity , invention , inventiveness , originality.
Seems to me, a 'happy accident' design oft involves (unrecognized) elements of immense creativity.
E.g., 'Pissing a 'happy face' on the wall':
Requires: creatively fashioned (1) tools, (2) techniques, and (3) materials:
1) That exquisitely designed drawing instrument (AKA, Penis) contains immense biochemical complexity that exceeds in harmony, symmetry and proportion, and by extension, creativity (beside sex) ... yes?
2) And possesses advanced biomechanical technique coordination (which seems, by definition, akin to being ingeniously fashioned biomechanics) to *non-creatively* 'squirt' a 'happy face'.
3) The drawing medium itself (AKA, urine we presume) contains rare-in-the-universe molecular and quantum 'fine' arrangements (H2O, Carbonaceous arrangements, etc.) that beg ingenuity.

DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
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