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Author Topic:   Alan Alda's polio
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3574 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 61 of 71 (424741)
09-28-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
09-27-2007 8:40 PM


Tautology 101
jar, you need to get a new argument. The old one is threadbare and your noodle is showing.

btw: Where were you in the 1940s? Do you have personal experiences of the polio epidemic that trump my own?

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 09-27-2007 8:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 09-28-2007 11:16 AM Fosdick has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 71 (424742)
09-28-2007 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Fosdick
09-28-2007 11:10 AM


Re: Tautology 101
First, personal experience is worth just about nothing. But if you had read what I posted in this thread you would have seen that I was there, had an Aunt who was afflicted with polio, a friend we used to visit who was in an iron lung and was well aware of both the hysteria of the time as well as the reality.

The old argument is still jess fine thank you and the readers can see that not even your own sources support what you claim.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:10 AM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:31 AM jar has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3574 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 63 of 71 (424744)
09-28-2007 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
09-28-2007 11:16 AM


Re: Tautology 101
jar writes:

First, personal experience is worth just about nothing.


So then you rely on what, exactly, to form your opinions? The personal experiences of others? Then you're a candidate for Kool-Aid therapy. How 'bout volunteering for service in Iraq? Kool-Aid is served up daily over there and in the White House.

"Texas!!" Now I get it.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 09-28-2007 11:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 09-28-2007 11:52 AM Fosdick has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 71 (424748)
09-28-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Fosdick
09-28-2007 11:31 AM


Re: Tautology 101
Actually I rely on reason, logic and reality and always try to test personal experience against those.

This thread is a great example of just that. Like you, I lived through the panics of the polio scares, and unlike you, I also had personal experience of a family member who had polio and a friend who eventually died of the disease.

But instead of just relying on my limited experience and anecdotal tales, I also looked at the actual facts.

Polio is a contagious virus caused disease. Sister Kinney's program cannot in anyway prevent someone from becoming infected. Once infected, her program seems to show about the same success rates as other methods that were available at the time with one great exception, all of the methods that used programs of rehabilitation work better than immobilization.

Sister Kinney's contribution was recognized and adopted in parts of Australia even before your report that you cite, and even the government that issued the report had reconsidered less than two years later and not just adopted her methods but also was sponsoring her travels to Great Britain to establish schools and clinics.

Within a short period she was also in the US teaching her methods and establishing a clinic.

These are all facts, and facts supported by cites you originally provided.

Now, if you want to argue that the medical-pharmaceutical-health care system in the US is screwed up, I would agree with you. But so far you have presented no evidence in support of such a position and that was not the topic of this thread.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:31 AM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 1:38 PM jar has responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1672 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 65 of 71 (424754)
09-28-2007 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 7:51 PM


Breaking news: Kinney employee says Kinney A-OK
Hoot:

Would you accept an excerpt of a biography of Sister Kinney from the Spine Hall of Fame?

Your 'Spine Hall of Fame' is provided by Michael V Burton, host of The Burton Report® (http://www.burtonreport.com). According to his own bio, entitled The Burton Experience, the editor is affiliated with the Sister Kenny Institute in Minneapolis where he 'founded the Department of Neuroaugmentive Surgery.'

The three Informatives® he provides at the site do not constitute peer-reviewed research and, in the pages I've seen, don't cite any.

Even if we accept promotional material from Kinney Institute employees as authoritative, your accusation remains unsupported. Burton never asserts that personal animosity lay behind the Australian medical community's rejection of Kinney's treatments.

What else do you have?

_____

Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 7:51 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1672 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 66 of 71 (424756)
09-28-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Fosdick
09-28-2007 11:02 AM


Re: credibility
Hoot:

OK, you win. I'll withdraw the word "hate" and replace it "despise." That should clear up your problem.

The problem is yours, I'm afraid, and it remains.

You still assert personal animosity as the only possible reason for the board's conclusions. To play juvenile word games over which label to use for that personal animosity is just to sustain the blind spot.

You still have not addressed the very real possibility I mentioned: that medical professionals in Kinney's day, after conducting valid research into her practices, were genuinely alarmed at what they discovered.

This remains a real possibility for any critical thinker. It may rationally be eliminated only when a rational reason is produced for doing so. You have been asked to provide such a reason.

You have failed spectacularly even to address the matter. You preoccupy yourself with minutia, act petulant, and display little acquaintance with the subject matter. You give no indication that you ever seriously considered, and thus rationally eliminated, this possibility for yourself.

You assume. You ask your readers to assume. This is not reason.

_____

Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:02 AM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 8:28 PM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3574 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 67 of 71 (424768)
09-28-2007 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
09-28-2007 11:52 AM


Re: Tautology 101
jar writes:

Now, if you want to argue that the medical-pharmaceutical-health care system in the US is screwed up, I would agree with you. But so far you have presented no evidence in support of such a position and that was not the topic of this thread.


Well, we have a difference of opinion on this. I know you will reject this as evidence, but it is evidence nonetheless, even if it is trivial and popular evidence: Hollywood became involved with Sister Kinney's early rejection by the medical establishment by producing a movie, albiet a biased movie, about her life. You can say what you like, but there was clearly a clash between Kinney and the medical establsihment early on, and then the meds caught on.

So, I ask you, What about all those kids who didn't get Sister Kinney's treatment because of the medical estblishment's early resistence to her methods?

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 09-28-2007 11:52 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 09-28-2007 1:56 PM Fosdick has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 71 (424772)
09-28-2007 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Fosdick
09-28-2007 1:38 PM


Re: Tautology 101
So, I ask you, What about all those kids who didn't get Sister Kinney's treatment because of the medical estblishment's early resistence to her methods?

So far you have not established "the medical establishment's early resistance to her methods".

First you need to establish that.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 1:38 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 8:06 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3574 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 69 of 71 (424824)
09-28-2007 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by jar
09-28-2007 1:56 PM


Re: Tautology 101
jar writes:

So far you have not established "the medical establishment's early resistance to her methods".

First you need to establish that.


I've established that I personally witnessed that. But, no, that's not good enough for you. I'll admit it was an ambiguous thing in that scary time, and it was probably parochial throughout the insular Midwest. That's where I came from. Even today, the progressive sub-cultures of coastal America, where I live now, are measurable ahead of many Midwest mindsets.

So it may have been where I lived at that time. Sister Kinney never came through our neighborhood, as she did in Alan Alda's. There was no talk at all that I can remember to encourage her methods for treating kids my age who were stricken with polio. But I can remember talk against it.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 09-28-2007 1:56 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3574 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 70 of 71 (424828)
09-28-2007 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Archer Opteryx
09-28-2007 12:32 PM


Re: credibility
AO writes:

You have failed spectacularly even to address the matter. You preoccupy yourself with minutia, act petulant, and display little acquaintance with the subject matter. You give no indication that you ever seriously considered, and thus rationally eliminated, this possibility for yourself.

You assume. You ask your readers to assume. This is not reason.


Did you copy this somehwere off the Internet? It's good. It could apply against any argument in any situation.

Now, come on! You're making a big fuss over my use of the word "hate." I said I'd change it to "despise." But, oh no, that's not goiing to do it for you either. So let me say this if it will help you feel better: I'm sorry I used the word "hate" incorrectly. It was misapplied for dramatic purposes—subjective as all get out. A different word should have been used instead, such as"disapproved of," or "frowned upon," or "sniffed at," perhaps, to reasonably argue with you that I have a point to make.

It's OK with me that I can't make my point with you. It's time for my Martini.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-28-2007 12:32 PM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 71 of 71 (428075)
10-14-2007 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Fosdick
09-24-2007 8:56 PM


Re: Homo pharmaceuticus americus
It's an argument against the common notion in America that drugs are the best way to attain good health and success. Yes, sometimes pills and shots are necessary. But if pills are deemed too necessary to make you slimmer, bigger, smaller, tighter, faster, sexier, more beautiful, or more healthy, then I have to ask if that is good thing for our society. I don't believe it is. I think our society is teaching our children that drugs will get them where they want to go.

Yes, I agree. People are used to their magic pills that make them better, when often taking that pill effects some major organ, which you need another pill to take to mitigate the effects of the first pill. Then you need take another pill to counter the effects of the second pill. It can be a vicious cycle.

Secondly, people in America take a pill when they have a headache. But one has to consider what a headache is, or really in general, what pain actually is indicative of. Pain, whether emotional or physical, is your bodies alarm system. Taking certain pills don't fix the problem, they often mask the alarm.

Going back to something like headaches, 9 out of 10 times you are just dehydrated. I don't take asprin for headaches. I drink copious amounts of water. Why silence the alarm, when you can actually fix the problem?

There's a "Drug War" here against recreational street drugs. And they will take your home away and sell if for cash if you happen to grow pot in it. But if you're a member of the medical-pharmaceutical complex you can make and use recreational drugs 'til the cows come home—hallucinogens, euphoriants, steroids, anti-depressants, Viagra, you name it—and nobody will bother you. Sure, and just as those drugs circulate expensively through our local pharmacies, homes, bathrooms, and bedrooms, they go right down the street to our schools.

The FDA, FBI, DEA, etc, etc, is starting to get serious about prescription drugs now. In California, if you are in possession of a prescription drug not prescribed to you, you could face a serious charge. And really, that's a good thing. Because we scoff at people that drink and drive, but somehow glibly overlook the fact that the effects of certain drugs are just as dangerous as being inebriated by alcohol.

Yes! Call it "holoistic medicine" if you like. But vitamin supplements, a staple of holistic medicine, are part of the pill problem too. Most of those "supplements" do absolutely nothing for you...just sh!t through a goose. But that's all part of consumer-driven capitalism, isn't it? Beware of "holistic medicine" too. Better to quit eating organic pizza and take up yoga. I guarantee your love bunny will get excited over that.

Everyone is trying to sell something. But like I said in a previous post, (btw, sorry it took me so long to respond), its that competition that creates better solutions. No one can deny that pharmacology has its benefits. Its not all bad. But sometimes drugs are only seen in terms of their immediate usage. I remember when Ritalin came out, and everyone was so happy that their kids were starting to focus at school. What they neglected to think about was that these same kids were figuring ways of essentially turning that drug in to speed. It started being sold in the schools.

As well, our hindsight and foresight is often poor. A lot of these drugs are pushed before we can see any long term effects. For instance, we are seeing a marked increase of both autism and alzheimers. Surely, there is something we are ingesting, be it some food additive or medication, that is doing something to us on the genetic level. What are we coming in to contact with that is increasing the prevalence of these two syndromes?

It was the same with asbestos. Sure, it was a great insulator. But we found out at a great cost that its down right dangerous to our lungs. It was the same with talcum powder. Sure, it dried up those diaper rashes fantastically. Problem is, it gets in the lungs and is hard to expel, causing all sorts of maladies.

The air is free in most places. I don't yet see a thriving yoga industry in America to rival that of drugs.

My uncle is real big in to Yoga. He also eats right. But I think people are slowly coming to the realization that eating right, along with regular exercise, along with a happy heart and mind is the best cure for what ails us.

Yet yoga actually can relief stress and a host of other health problems. Odd, isn't it, that yoga is not taught routinely in K-12 public schools? (Maybe this Buddha stuff is threatening to a "Christian society," or maybe it is threatening to the drug industry.)

Since one doesn't have to do with the other, I don't see that as a viable contingent. You can't knock western medicine exclusively, seeing that in the east, they utilize western medicine more than they do eastern. I think both have pro's and con's.


"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Fosdick, posted 09-24-2007 8:56 PM Fosdick has not yet responded

    
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