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Author Topic:   The "Circle of the Earth"
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 307 (427895)
10-13-2007 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by arachnophilia
10-13-2007 1:22 AM


Re: The circle of the earth
arachnophilia,
A question since you know more about the bible than I ever cared to find out.
In the OP there is this quote:
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to live in;
But in one of your posts you have this quote:
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
If "the circle of the earth" is the outside rim of a flat disk earth the first quote makes sense. The second quote says he's sitting on "the circle of the earth" which means he's on the horizon if we go with the same flat disk earth. That doesn't make much sense.
Does the Hebrew word being translated as "above" and "upon" shed any light on this? Upon, at least in English, connotes physical contact, while above does not.
Since these people believed the sky was a solid dome, the movement of the sun, moon, and planets would trace a semicircle on the inside of this dome. What do you think about the idea that "the circle of the earth" might be a phrase meaning the ecliptic? God being upon or above it would still give him the same grasshopper view. Or do you think this idea too complex for the ancient Hebrews?
Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2007 1:22 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2007 3:51 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 219 by doctrbill, posted 10-21-2007 11:44 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 197 of 307 (427915)
10-13-2007 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by doctrbill
10-13-2007 8:52 AM


Re: tohu/bohu
Sorry for the delay. For some reason I did not receive notification of your reply.
the thread was busted. didn't get listed in recent topics, didn't send out notifications. seems to be fixed now.
arachnophilia writes:
i would have written if i meant that, and be done with it.
I am not as proficient with the Hebrew as yourself. Perhaps you can offer a transliteration for my simple mind?
oh, yes, sorry. that would be ain aretz or "there was no earth."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by doctrbill, posted 10-13-2007 8:52 AM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by doctrbill, posted 10-21-2007 11:12 AM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 198 of 307 (427919)
10-13-2007 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by petrophysics1
10-13-2007 1:11 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
If "the circle of the earth" is the outside rim of a flat disk earth the first quote makes sense.
technically, it makes sense either way, but you have know what the image is:
the bit that "surrounds" (what the word really implies) the earth in the flat, circular sense, is in fact -- heaven.
Does the Hebrew word being translated as "above" and "upon" shed any light on this? Upon, at least in English, connotes physical contact, while above does not.
the hebrew can actually be translated either way.
What do you think about the idea that "the circle of the earth" might be a phrase meaning the ecliptic? God being upon or above it would still give him the same grasshopper view. Or do you think this idea too complex for the ancient Hebrews?
yes. they're not trying to convey an astrological truth here, but be a religious one. the picture they intent to paint is one of god looking down from heaven, and heaven spread around the earth like a tent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by petrophysics1, posted 10-13-2007 1:11 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Force, posted 10-31-2007 7:25 PM arachnophilia has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 307 (427931)
10-13-2007 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by arachnophilia
10-13-2007 3:47 AM


Re: The circle of the earth
This has nothing in the way of substance. He flies around as is clear, and in this case He sits on a circuit of the earth.
No projection needed. Nothing about Isaiah indicates otherwise.
No real discussion could be more real that looking at what the circle is. I think we all know who sat on it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2007 3:47 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2007 10:10 PM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 307 (427936)
10-13-2007 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by ringo
10-13-2007 10:34 AM


quote:
There is no "circuit of the universe" in the passage we are discussing. You need to look at Isaiah 40 and understand what it means before you can assume that other passages are related.
There is a circuit of the heavens, indeed. The word circuit means circle. That applies to the passage about the circuit or circle of the earth.
Very much. It shows that this circuit God sits on, and looks down on earth does not refer to it's shape, in point of fact.
Job 22:14 - Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.
definition
1. circle, circuit, compass
Check, and mate.
quote:
We've only been saying "circled the earth" since we've known the earth is round. In this discussion, the shape of the earth is the question. Claiming that "the circle of the earth' means going "around" the earth is a circular argument.
First of all, we have no idea what we used to say before modern science in that regards. If we were to circle around a square asteroid, we would still circle it. The circle refers to OUR circuit, not the shape of what we circle!!
quote:
Anyhow, if God took His wheels over the earth, and hovered over an area He wanted to focus on, He could sit on the circuit of the earth.
No He wouldn't. Hovering is not circular motion.
The earth rotates, and orbits the sun. That provides the movement. If there was a circuit around earth that He usually favored, He could indeed sit on part of it hovering. Just like we could pick a point in the trajectory of a satellite, and run up there, and do a space walk, or somehow stay on the one point in the circuit. Simple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 10-13-2007 10:34 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 10-13-2007 5:45 PM simple has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 201 of 307 (427943)
10-13-2007 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by simple
10-13-2007 4:57 PM


simple writes:
The word circuit means circle.
No it doesn't. The word "circuit" implies a path - i.e. movement - and not necessarily a circular path. Isaiah does not suggest that God is moving at all. On the contrary, the word "sitteth" suggests strongly that He is stationary.
Job 22:14
is irrelevant. We're talking about Isaiah.
If we were to circle around a square asteroid, we would still circle it. The circle refers to OUR circuit, not the shape of what we circle!!
That's exactly what I've been saying. The topic is about the shape of the object. Even if God did circle around the earth in a Radio Flyer or on a toboggan, it would be irrelevant to this discussion. If you think Isaiah says nothing about the shape of the earth, you're done. You've conceded.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by simple, posted 10-13-2007 4:57 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by simple, posted 10-14-2007 2:32 AM ringo has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 202 of 307 (427965)
10-13-2007 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by simple
10-13-2007 4:44 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
This has nothing in the way of substance. He flies around as is clear, and in this case He sits on a circuit of the earth.
no, that's what i'm saying. your posts contribute nothing of worth. you just go on, and on about the same old things. never in any depth, just in one-liners. as you have done here. you don't support your arguments. you don't even argue your arguments. you just say them and expect your genius to convince us all.
No projection needed. Nothing about Isaiah indicates otherwise.
no, you are projecting. you claim my posts have not been substantiated -- but only because you don't happen to think that reading the book, or studying the language it was written in, or actually understanding context has any merit. no, the only "substantiation" that will do for you is "the holy spirit told me so."
well, the holy spirit told me you were wrong.
are we done here?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by simple, posted 10-13-2007 4:44 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by simple, posted 10-14-2007 2:40 AM arachnophilia has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 307 (428005)
10-14-2007 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by ringo
10-13-2007 5:45 PM


quote:
No it doesn't. The word "circuit" implies a path - i.e. movement - and not necessarily a circular path. Isaiah does not suggest that God is moving at all. On the contrary, the word "sitteth" suggests strongly that He is stationary.
Doesn't matter at all if He was moving, the point is that the circuit or circle He uses seems to be a certain path. Whether He sits or hovers on a point in that path, or goes around it, sitting on a throne it matters not. The path, or circle is still there.
quote:
Job 22:14
is irrelevant. We're talking about Isaiah.
Comparing scripture with scripture, and checking the contexts of the Hebrew words, is anything but irrelevant. It is needed.
quote:
That's exactly what I've been saying. The topic is about the shape of the object. Even if God did circle around the earth in a Radio Flyer or on a toboggan, it would be irrelevant to this discussion. If you think Isaiah says nothing about the shape of the earth, you're done. You've conceded.
Yes, I don't think the shape of the earth was the object of what was being said there. Of course I concede that. If that is your point, you are correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 10-13-2007 5:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by ringo, posted 10-14-2007 3:05 AM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 307 (428007)
10-14-2007 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by arachnophilia
10-13-2007 10:10 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
quote:
no, that's what i'm saying. your posts contribute nothing of worth. you just go on, and on about the same old things. never in any depth, just in one-liners. as you have done here. you don't support your arguments. you don't even argue your arguments. you just say them and expect your genius to convince us all.
I supported the bejesiz out of it six ways from Sunday. God has wheels. Your denial is getting petty.
quote:
no, you are projecting. you claim my posts have not been substantiated -- but only because you don't happen to think that reading the book, or studying the language it was written in, or actually understanding context has any merit. no, the only "substantiation" that will do for you is "the holy spirit told me so."
well, the holy spirit told me you were wrong.
are we done here?
Big talk for saying absolutely nothing! I substantiated a case for what the circle of the earth likely is from the bible. I haven't seen you bring anything from Isaiah to back up a case, if you even have one.
Mine is clear, I don't even know what yours is. The more you talk, the foggier it becomes. Stop trying to impress us, and make a case, or get off the pot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2007 10:10 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by arachnophilia, posted 10-14-2007 11:23 PM simple has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 205 of 307 (428012)
10-14-2007 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by simple
10-14-2007 2:32 AM


simple writes:
Comparing scripture with scripture, and checking the contexts of the Hebrew words, is anything but irrelevant. It is needed.
But you're not comparing scripture with scripture. You're taking a hare-brained interpretaion of Ezekiel and a hare-brained interpretaion of Job and projecting them onto Isaiah, where they have no relevance.
And you're still missing the fact that this is a science thread. Comparing scripture with scripture has no place here.
The question still is: Did the author(s) of Isaiah know the earth is spheroidal? God "orbiting" or hovering doesn't answer that question.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by simple, posted 10-14-2007 2:32 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by simple, posted 10-14-2007 3:47 AM ringo has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 307 (428018)
10-14-2007 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Force
10-13-2007 12:29 AM


Re: The circle of the earth
No, I think your doubts are not founded on reality of any kind. God inspired the compilation of the records we had. No better way exists to learn about His plan, and message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Force, posted 10-13-2007 12:29 AM Force has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by arachnophilia, posted 10-14-2007 11:30 PM simple has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 307 (428019)
10-14-2007 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by ringo
10-14-2007 3:05 AM


quote:
But you're not comparing scripture with scripture. You're taking a hare-brained interpretaion of Ezekiel and a hare-brained interpretaion of Job and projecting them onto Isaiah, where they have no relevance.
The relationship of circuit to circle is absolutely relative, and the fact that the universe also has a circle helps shed light on the circle of the earth of Isaiah.
quote:
And you're still missing the fact that this is a science thread. Comparing scripture with scripture has no place here.
Anywhere that the bible is brought up, a proper balance of what the bible means is perfectly in order, and phooey on crippled science that is not even a minor league player in the fields of the Lord, and the bible.
When the bible is in a science thread being discussed, there has to be room for a proper understanding and balance of what it means, ot keep it out of your would be kangaroo court. I mean that.
quote:
The question still is: Did the author(s) of Isaiah know the earth is spheroidal? God "orbiting" or hovering doesn't answer that question.
The question of what the circle of the earth is has nothing to do with the shape of the planet, regardless of what the authors of the bible knew!!!!
I would say they did know, because they directly talked to flying beongs who saw it plenty! We don't need to contort a good verse about something else to establish that obvious fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by ringo, posted 10-14-2007 3:05 AM ringo has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 307 (428088)
10-14-2007 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by arachnophilia
10-13-2007 2:06 AM


Typical.
this seems like it's on the brink of becoming a philosophical argument about how we can never truly know anything.
Seems to be a common theme among a certain portion of the religious types. If they think that the facts support their case, they'll rub your nose in it. But when it becomes clear that the facts support the opposite, then suddenly it's, "but we can't really be sure that we understand this correctly."

In many respects, the Bible was the world's first Wikipedia article. -- Doug Brown (quoted by Carlin Romano in The Chronicle Review)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2007 2:06 AM arachnophilia has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 307 (428089)
10-14-2007 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by arachnophilia
10-13-2007 1:30 AM


Re: The circle of the earth
we have no idea of knowing whether or not isaiah was a real person.
In fact, I believe that the consensus is that at least two people were responsible for writing Isaiah.

In many respects, the Bible was the world's first Wikipedia article. -- Doug Brown (quoted by Carlin Romano in The Chronicle Review)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2007 1:30 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by arachnophilia, posted 10-14-2007 11:33 PM Chiroptera has not replied

tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 210 of 307 (428107)
10-14-2007 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by simple
10-13-2007 12:12 AM


Re: The circle of the earth
"Absolute bunk. God having wheels and a mobile throne does not make the earth flat. And there can be no denying that it was God in the wheels and throne. You should know that. "
Your conception of god riding around in a mobile chair hovering above the earth is really funny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by simple, posted 10-13-2007 12:12 AM simple has not replied

Replies to this message:
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