God's existence cannot be proven logically!

But the sidebar shows: So, 4883 posts of which 2378 are totally erroneous (including this one), 1290 that are partially erroneous and a very few that just repeat what has been told to you. This is a very interesting interpretation. Could you show, or just outline, how you are able to conclude this very important change from the bible text?

I also exist 'everywhen'. Even before my birth and after my death the molecules, atoms, electrons, quarks of my body exist at all points of time that the universe exists. However, I am only consciously aware of one point in time and only cognizant of a few small stretches of recent time.If god is aware and cognizant of all points in time (at the same time), then he knew the events that would transpire in the garden of eden, even before he created the heaven and the earth, and he even knew that he would bring the great flood and then regret that he had done so. He just wouldn't have been able to stop himself.This sure makes it sound like if god is 'outside of time', i. e., he is aware of all instances of time continuously, then god must be subservient to time.

You exist in a finite amount of space time.God exists in an infinite amount of space time.You are in a small every-when.He is in a large every-when.Regards
DL

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Yahweh was a tribal god

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It depends on which interpretation of Yahweh we are referencing I suppose.The Bible indicates that Yahweh held an intimate association with the Israelites. However this alone does not classify him as a tribal god as some would put it. The question was once raised asking whether God was an exclusive God of the Jews and Paul responded in saying "Is he not also of people of the nations?" The answer was "Yes, of people and of the nations also.”Furthermore, the Israelites did not choose Yahweh as their God, rather, He chose them to accomplish his purpose. A tribal god’s destiny is bound up with that of its people. When the tribe is vanquished, the god too suffers defeat. This has not been the case with God.It has also been criticized that Yahweh was a bloodthirsty tribal god of the Jews. To justify such a title, presumptuous critics cite Gods ousting of the Canaanites from their land in order to give it to the Jews. However, the records clearly show that Canaanites were removed because they polluted the land by their gross immorality”their adultery, homosexuality, and their shedding of the blood of babies. If Israel copies this Canaanite religion of Baal worship, it will also be cast out.

My take on this is that God the entity exists in a realm where time and space is not a factor. It was written long ago that this was his position regarding mankind. I myself have always found it quite simple to rationalize eternity, we simply follow the trail to the root and regardless of our beliefs we end up transcending time and space.I have to say though, I think it's intriguing that someone would describe God with genre(he/she). As an absolute power(God) in every aspect would have no such attributes, otherwise he would not be absolute. Also, since God would have created gender, as a human characteristic which he would hold absolute authority over. It is notable however, that for the purpose of headship and authority, God often presented himself as a father or as a masculine presence. - Additionally the account of Angels coming to earth was described as the sons of God lusting for the women of the earth.

My post was an attempt to understand logical arguments, not present a position concerning whether Yahweh was a tribal god or not.Since this thread is about using logical arguments, continuing the position you present would be off topic.

The tribal God response loosely addressed Message 12 of 51

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Since this thread is about using logical arguments, continuing the position you present would be off topic.

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I agree. Which is precisely why I added message 50 of 51. Nevertheless, I see no problems leaving things exactly where they are.

the fact that you cant prove his existance logically PROVES that he doesnt exist. logic defines EVERYTHING. things dont happen without a reason. we've known this as a species for quite some time. if logic cant prove it it doesnt exist (or sometimes, on a rare occasion, the systems of logic need to be updated).

Actually, if one truly can't logically prove the existence of god, then it means that the premises are not sufficient to reach the desired conclusion. That means that either we don't have the data to formulate reasonable premises, or that our conception of god is inadequate to come to reasonable premises. Of course, that might be because no god actually exists.As I've previously explained, one cannot logically prove anything about real facts (like whether or not a god exists). All logic allows us to do is to determine whether or not certain conclusions must follow our initial premises and assumptions.

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I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

I think that God's existence can ve proven logically. Every religion depend on logic, intelligence and heart. So, every subject of religion can be proven by logical provement. Every scholar of religion write about God's existence and they made it the essence of their belief.The essential problem is that all people in this century assume that religion is not scientifical. And the authority in this century is science and religion is not scientifical, so religion is absurd.But I think that religion is scientifical and logical. I want to copy a text about God's existence from a book that be wroten about the essential of religion ( for example angels, prophethoods, and Books of God, and resurrection etc. If you read this text you will see that God's existence can be proven by logic and there are a lot of logical provements of this subject.

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SEVENTEENTH WNDOWS

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Indeed in the heavens and earth are signs for those who believe ( Qoran; 45/3 )

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If we observe the face of the earth in the summer, we see that an absolute munificence and generosity, which necessitates confusion and disarrangement, is to be seen within a total harmony and order. Look at all the plants which adorn the face of the earth!

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And the utter speed in the creation of things, which necessitates imbalance and disorder, is apparent within a perfect equilibrium. Look at all the fruits which decorate the face of the earth!

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And an absolute multiplicity, which necessitates unimportance, indeed, ugliness, is apparent within a perfect beauty of art. Look at all the flowers which gild the face of the earth!

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And the absolute ease in the creation of things, which necessitates lack of art and simplicity, is to be seen within an infinite art and skill and attention. Look carefully at all seeds, which are like the tiny containers and programmes of the members of plants and trees and the small cases containing their life-histories!

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And the great distances, which necessitate difference and diversity, appear within an correspondence and conformity. Look at all the varieties of cereal grains sown in every part of the earth!

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And the total intermingling, which necessitates confusion and muddle, is on the contrary to be seen within a perfect differentiation and separation. Consider the perfect differentiation of seeds when they sprout, despite being cast into the earth all mixed-up together and all resembling one another with regard to their substance, and the various substances which enter trees being separated out perfectly for the leaves, flowers, and fruits, and the foods which enter the stomach all mixed-up together being separated out perfectly according to the various members and cells. See the perfect power within the perfect wisdom!

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And the great abundance and infinite profusion, which necessitate unimportance and worthlessness, are to be seen as most valuable and expensive in regard to the creatures and art on the face of the earth. Within these innumerable wonders of art, consider only the varieties of mulberry, those sweets of Divine Power, on the table of the All-Merciful One on the face of the earth! See them within the perfect mercy, the perfect art!

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And so, just as the day shows the light, and the light the sun, the great value together with the utter profusion; and the boundless intermingling and intermixing together with the utmost differentiation and separation within the utter profusion; and the great distance together with the utmost conformity and resemblance within the limitless differentiation and separation; and the infinite ease and facility together with the infinite care in the making within the utmost resemblance; and the absolute speed and rapidity together with the total equilibrium and balance and lack of waste within the most beautiful making; and the infinite abundance and multiplicity together with the highest degree of beauty of art within utter lack of waste; and the utmost munificence together with absolute order within the highest degree of beauty of art, all testify to the necessary existence, perfect power, beautiful Dominicality, and Unity and Oneness of an All-Powerful One of Glory, an All-Wise One of Perfection, an All-Compassionate and Beauteous One. They demonstrate the meaning of the verse:

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His are the Most Beautiful Names ( Qoran; 20/8 )

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So now, O you wretched, ignorant, heedless, obstinate, idle one! With what can you interpret this mighty truth? With what can you explain this infinitely miraculous and wonderful state of affairs? To what can you attribute these truly extraordinary arts? What veil of heedlessness can you draw across this window as broad as the earth and so close it? Where is your chance and coincidence, your unconscious companion on which you rely and call 'Nature', your friend and support in misguidance? It is totally impossible for chance and coincidence to interfere in these matters, isn't it? And to attribute to ' Nature ' one thousandth of them is impossible a thousand times over, isn't it?

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Or does lifeless, impotent Nature have immaterial machines and printing presses within each single thing, made from each, and to the number of each?

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Source
thanks for reading
your brother's
EymenEdited by AdminModulous, : added quote boxes and link to the source.

The premise: "It is totally impossible for chance and coincidence to interfere in these matters", is on very shaky grounds. Time and again chance has been shown to play a significant role in 'these things'. This looks like the argument ad bananum with big words.Welcome to EvC by the wayEdited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Modulous replied and his replying very logical. But I want to say some sentences to him which I think that those will give new ideas. We assume either one thing absolutely active and others of Him are absolutely passive or all things are absolutely active. But we know that if a thing is active, it wants to act another thing otherwise it can not be active. But we firstly say that everything is absolutely active. So, everything can not be active at the same time. One thing has activeness more logical than all things have activeness.All scientiest know that the time is created by activity. If there is not any activity, the time can not be. Because the time is long of activities.And no thing can not create and make any thing. For example, the Sun can not create any leaf, flower, people, cat or any animals etc... Because a being of a thing can be with all thing. For example, being of a flower can be only with the Sun, and the World and its turning and the Moon, and soil, air, minerals which it need, and warm, and time, and energy, and conscious and knowledge etc... You can see that a thing can only be made by absolute power and indefinite knowledge and universal concious. You can understand that these specialities are belong to God.I can say that we accept that either one God or indefinite Gods. t means that if there is not any God, so everything should be God. And this idea is an absurd.And we can say that all thing and every thing is mirror of God and we can see the power and knowledge and conscious of God on it. Because a thing includes the power and knowledge and conscious on body. If a man has not these specialities, he can not make and create any thing. So the project and plan of a thing is before its energical being in the world. So we can see the knowledge of God on everything in the universe, especially on human. Because human is the smallest model of universe. And We can say that human is small universe and universe is big human. And no woman and man create a person and they can not make themselves. But we know that human is the top of universe and being. It means that no thing can not make no thing. Because " The condition of the existence of the whole is the existence of all the parts "The conclusion of this sentences say that God make everything and all needs of a thing. No thing did not any thing and will ont any thing. God made everything and will make everything. But we don not have to forget that God use everything as like as a tool for making a thing. For example, He uses a man and woman for a child. And God uses their sexual relationship as a tool for creating and making a child.You can understand from this explanation that the Sun, and World and Moon and air, and water and plant and animals are tools of God.see you soon