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Author Topic:   Are thoughts transcendant?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 142 (423377)
09-21-2007 3:57 PM


I was just standing in my kitchen cleaning the dishes when a thought came over me. I started thinking about the nature of thinking. (For some reason, doing the dishes gives me time to reflect. Hey, I'm sure my wife won't complain about that)
Neurology has made strident advances over the decades helping us to understand all of the intricacies of the brain. But there is still so much not yet understood about the human mind.
This got me thinking about an old argument I had with a true skeptic who simply had to rationalize everything with biology. The argument was about love. I asked him what love was. He proceeded to give me some canned, unemotional response about areas of the brain light up under an MRI when shown pictures of loved ones. This, apparently, was tantamount to love to him-- firing synapses.
I countered that what was detected surely was not itself love, only evidence of the brain reacting to love. Sure, the pictures likely gave him pleasant thoughts which released endorphins, thus culminating in an ultimate happy and euphoric state. But that explained nothing about love itself, and moreover, what exactly it is.
More than that, it did nothing to explain thoughts.
Thoughts... What are they, really?
We've never witnessed anyone's thoughts. At most we see evidence of someone in the process of thinking. We understand cognitive maps, especially since most us have the ability to retain them. But there is still so much about thoughts that seem almost transcendent-- separate from the brain.
Is the mind and the brain different? Sure, they are intimately connected. But is it possible that where the brain dies, the mind transcends?
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 09-21-2007 4:49 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 09-21-2007 10:06 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 09-22-2007 2:19 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 09-22-2007 2:21 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 142 (423388)
09-21-2007 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
09-21-2007 4:49 PM


Re: Sonnets or Synapsis
A wee bit of both, good sir.
MiscTop is fine. I can't think of anywhere more appropriate.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 142 (423489)
09-22-2007 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
09-21-2007 10:06 PM


Re: Symbolism
I'm gonna have to echo Jon's sentiments here, Phat.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 142 (423497)
09-22-2007 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taz
09-22-2007 2:19 AM


Mary's Room experiment
I'm confused about something. How did you get from
quote:
At most we see evidence of someone in the process of thinking.
to
quote:
But is it possible that where the brain dies, the mind transcends?
Sorry for the confusion. I'm wondering if perhaps the mind and the brain are different things-- that the mind needs the brain in the physical in order to express itself, but that when the brain dies, the mind can live on. Of course, this is all pretty much conjecture. But I wanted to know what you guys might think about it.
Apparently I'm not the only one to have thought of such a concept. I just discovered this website on it.
Through my quest for an answer, I have found an interesting experiment referred to as, Mary's Room. It doesn't exactly coincide with the current questions about the mind/brain, but it does correspond to my question about material and transcendental.
The hypothetical scenario asks us to think of a highly intelligent scientist named Mary. Mary, though, has been locked away in a color deprived world her whole life. Her studies include neurophysiology, vision and electromagnetics, to include the study of color themselves. So she has an intellectual understanding of something like color, but has never experienced color. Eventually Mary is released from her room and experiences colors for the first time.
The question is, did she learn something new?
Your answer helps dictate how you view the world.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 142 (428302)
10-15-2007 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by petrophysics1
10-14-2007 4:59 PM


Re: On thought and telepathy
The answer to this is, I believe, Yes. It does relate to telepathy.
That's not exactly what I had in mind, but I would agree that telepathy will qualify a form of transcendent thought.
Can humans detect EM radiation. Of course, we can see. So can lots of other creatures, and sharks can detect fish in their area that are in distress by sensing electrical impulses.
Do you think that animals sense this EM radiation when they, say, become distressed about an incoming storm? If that's true, then what of earthquakes, since various animals from fish to dogs to birds have exhibited strange behavior just before a quake hits?
Do you think there is a sensefield, of sorts, being emitted in the form of raw energy? If so, would you classify this phenomena also as EM radiation?
Can you read other people’s thoughts?
Well, as bizarre as it might be, I have read quite a bit about MK Ultra that, quite honestly, I found astonishing. I wouldn't say that I'm a true believer in it or a total skeptic. I'm somewhere in the middle.
You can turn it off by getting in a car, and deciding to drive across America without ever sleeping. Sooner or later you will get so tired you will lose “depth perception” and crash. Or you could “find” it and figure out how to turn it on and off at will. I can do this. It took me a long time and I have no idea if you can learn how to do it or not.
Turn what off? Your depth perception? If so, how is it done for you?
So far in my 58 years I know well only two people who can “see/perceive” what other people are thinking. A fellow named Frank I had worked with at one time back in NY and me. I’ve come across a few others in Lily Dale a spiritualist community where mediums “contact” the dead. Actually what they do is perceive what someone is thinking about their deceased loved ones and describe what they “see”. Most mediums there aren’t very good and some are fakes.
None contact the dead.
Interesting.
BTW even though I can perceive other people’s thoughts I have no psychic/spiritual ability. I only detect EM radiation people are naturally putting out. I don’t do it very often since most of the time like everyone else I’m occupied thinking and if a person is primarily thinking in words and symbols I don’t perceive that very well. They have to be thinking of an actual event in their lives. Let me give you an example. When my older son was 9 he mentioned that nobody could read people’s thoughts. I told him that some people could and asked him to close his eyes and recall sometime in his life when he was having a good time and keep thinking about it, but to say absolutely nothing. I then shut everything off and became a “total observer paying attention”. What happened was I felt something across the upper part of my chest and when I “looked” at “paid close attention” to it, I realized and saw in my mind that I was in a swimming pool (could feel that water lapping against my chest) and saw my older brother standing at the side of the pool on his deck( this was a “picture” from my son’s viewpoint as it would have had to have been, he was doing the recalling). So I said to my son it was the summer before last, you are in Uncle Joe’s pool looking up at him on the deck. His mouth dropped open, yes that was exactly what he was recalling.
Very interesting.
Is thought transcendent? Do radio waves and light waves last forever? Thought results in the same thing. Ask a physicist, I think they might, but I’m not sure.
Which brings me to my next question. What are thoughts, actually? Are they merely just temporal signals? If so, what is the mechanism that accounts for memories? Is there not something grander than that?
I also wanted to get your input on a very strange phenomenon that might be along the same lines as what we've been discussing. When I played in band, my bassist and one of my guitarists used to ask me strange questions, like, "What color do see to that song?"
As you might imagine, my answer was, "What color do I see? I'm sorry, but I'm not following you what you're saying. Explain it to me."
The description they gave me was that morphing color schemes appear in their mind whenever they hear music. Dependent upon the tone or mood of the music, variations of colors could be seen in their mind.
Being that they are both really eccentric kind of people, I sort of dismissed it. But then I started reading about a phenomenon called, Synesthesia. Immediately I thought of my band mates.
And what seemed fanciful began making more sense in a very real way. Based on their descriptions, I have imagined that screen saver that plays on audio files, with undulating patterns of color, morphing in to different shapes and shades of color.
A couple months back, I was watching a television program about an English idiot-savant, who, for all intense and purposes, is a mathematical genius. In describing his talent, he takes his synesthesia a step further. He claims that each number, no matter how many characters, illicit in his mind very distinct shapes and colors.
Some oblong, some very angular, some intricately geometric, along with varying colors. The number, say, 71, is completely unique to just 7 or 1.
Now, a lot of good neurological theories have been proposed that seem plausible, but I'm curious to get your take on it, given your alleged talent.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : Edit to add

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Damouse, posted 10-15-2007 10:16 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 142 (428305)
10-15-2007 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Taz
10-14-2007 11:14 PM


Re: On thought and telepathy
In your opinion, would this simulate what you referred to as the silencing of the mind?
And isn't this the goal of deep meditation? I have tried to meditate so deeply that, literally, no thoughts come in. I find this virtually impossible, as if I'm consciously thinking about not thinking. Seems circular to me. But then again, there is that possibility that I have not been bestowed with such a gift.
As for playing music by ear, I too can do this with ease. A lot of people have been bewildered by it. But for me its like that scene in Good Will Hunting where his girlfriend was trying to understand how and why mathematics was so simple for him. Bereft of any good answer, all he could really say was that he just understood it with ease.
Perhaps we all have these talents, but that we all channel them differently.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Taz, posted 10-14-2007 11:14 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 142 (428451)
10-16-2007 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Damouse
10-15-2007 10:16 PM


Re: On thought and telepathy
Define sensefield.
Its another word for "aura," which some people claim is the ability to sense electromagnetic properties coming off of a living being.
Define raw energy.
Kinetic energy.
As to the storm example, animals eqaute the sudden and obvious drop in pressure
Yes, I suppose this makes more sense.
The quake example has never been decisively proven; if you have evidance to the contrary then by all means post it.
No I don't, which is why I asked if anyone knows. Perhaps they can feel minor tremors, which are imperceptible to humans, just considerable seizmic activity begins.
Human minds recieving and interpereting EM waves other than those outside the visible spectrum is utter bullshit. We do not have the hardware for it, and if we did by some random feat of genetics we would not be able to discern it from all the backround radiation that we are bathed in every single day.
Yes, you make a very good point. I carry a radiation pager much of the day which is almost always registering some background radiation, especially onshore. And I always get a huge SMAC reading when I board vessels carrying bananas because the large quantity of potassium usually gives a false reading. If his EM wave theory stands up to scrutiny, one would think he'd be going berzerk around bananas.
So, maybe it isn't EM waves. Would you say that you are completely unconvinced of any other possibilities, or do you find Petro's claim to be total hokum?
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : typos

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

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Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 142 (428524)
10-16-2007 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by PurpleYouko
10-16-2007 1:45 PM


Re: On thought and telepathy
Hi NJ. It's been a while since we spoke
Hey there... Yes, its been some time.
Kinetic energy is a rather specific form of energy associated with moving objects
Yes, you're absolutely right. How does "potential energy" work for everyone? Couldn't stored, unspent energy be considered raw energy?
What kind of radiation does it measure? The only thing I can imagine giving you a hit from potassium on a banana boat would be low energy gamma.
Yes, that's exactly what it is. The Rad pagers only detect for Gamma and Neutrons. Alpha and Beta particles are not included. To add for clarity, when I say it registers, it is very low. A bad SMAC reading, which is inherently dangerous, is anything over 4500 microrem per minute, or over 20 neutrons per second. The readings by bananas are like anywhere from 50-250 microrem per minute. Certainly nothing that is going to hurt you.
There is something more nerve rattling than that, which we call, "The pucker factor." Its when you are walking on the deck and all of a sudden the pager goes off the charts. When you stop to investigate a suspected emanation site, it isn't repeatable. If it isn't repeatable, its probably due to a phenomenon known as the "Ship Effect." Nobody is entirely certain of why it happens. But the best known scientific reason is given in the quote below from a Department of Energy official:
"The ship effect occurs when high energy cosmic rays, protons, interact with earth's atmosphere, leading to showers of neutrons at surface level... In the presence of large quantities of steel, such as on a ship, these high energy neutrons are converted to many more lower energy neutrons, which has the effect of turning a ship into a floating neutron source. This phenomenon is harmless, but it makes measurement difficult."
If Petro's theory of EM radiation was correct then that kind of thing wouldn't really effect it since EM is more of a magnetic field than an actual partical as you detect with radiation monitors.
I suspect that he must have meant something more along the lines of magnetic fields as opposed to actual radiation. I'm hoping he'll answer soon because I'm kind of lost as to what he means exactly.
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : fixed quote tags

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-16-2007 1:45 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Wounded King, posted 10-16-2007 5:24 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 142 (428565)
10-16-2007 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Wounded King
10-16-2007 5:24 PM


Re: On thought and telepathy
I can imagine looking at a still of a tsunami and thinking 'Wow, look at the sheer raw energy imagine the force of all the potential energy stored in that towering wall of water unleashed', but I can't really imagine feeling the same way looking at a room full of batteries no matter how much chemical potential energy they represented.
Well, perhaps when energy is most animated, such as it would be found in gale-force winds, that one begins to truly appreciate energy. A battery just sits there.
I think one big problem is that 'raw energy' is not really a technical term but a colloquial one used to describe particularly dramatic or vigorous displays of energy. people talk about raw energy in sports or in musical performances, it isn't really a scientific term.
True. I think the term "raw energy" is just used for hyperbole to capture the essence or the grandeur of it.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

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