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Author Topic:   Assumptions about faith
ringo
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Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 13 of 54 (428499)
10-16-2007 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by bluegenes
10-16-2007 2:47 PM


Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
bluegenes writes:

I like the word "tentativity". It makes sense, although I doubt if it's in any dictionary.

Words aren't born in dictionaries. :)


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 22 of 54 (428742)
10-17-2007 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by bdfoster
10-17-2007 1:54 PM


bdfoster writes:

It would be hard to come up with a theology that could be considered Christian without salvation by grace through faith.

Circular reasoning? Of course a theology won't be "considered Christian" if it disagrees with my theology. :D

(I think salvation by grace through faith is a doctrine just like the trinity. A scriptural case can be made for both, but I have no faith in either.)


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 24 of 54 (428754)
10-17-2007 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by bdfoster
10-17-2007 2:41 PM


bdfoster writes:

Any form of Christianity that didn't include these would have to would be at odds with the foundational documents of Christianity (Paul's letters).

Paul himself was the ultimate spin doctor. To say that his letters are "foundational" is a highly questionable assumption, I would say.

When he said, "By grace are ye saved "through" faith," did he mean that faith is a prerequisite for grace? That's what many people seem to think - if you don't "believe" in X, Y and Z, you're No True Christian.

Or did he mean that we have to rely on faith that there is grace, because we have no evidence of grace?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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 Message 30 by itrownot, posted 10-18-2007 11:29 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 26 of 54 (428896)
10-18-2007 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by bdfoster
10-18-2007 1:12 AM


Re: Paul spins it
bdfoster writes:

God will have mercy on whom God have mercy.

Which is why the whole covering-the-sins-with-Jesus'-blood thing is irrelevant. Come right down to it, the whole Jesus thing is irrelevant. :)

The messenger is not the message.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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ringo
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Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 32 of 54 (429021)
10-18-2007 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by itrownot
10-18-2007 11:29 AM


itrownot writes:

In case you haven't noticed, I posted an apology to you this morning for unleashing my trirade a few hours ago on gen's thread, so I won't repeat that here.

:)

I just was reading your musing re Eph 2:8 and would like to suggest that you simply parse the sentence carefully for its true meaning.

I don't look for "true meaning" in one verse - or in the whole Bible, for that matter.

... it is only by the grace of God that we are able to receive our salvation as a result of our faith in Jesus.

If there are conditions or qualifications on the "gift" it isn't really a gift, it's more of a sale.

The assumption that I'm questioning, as per the topic, is that faith has anything whatsoever to do with grace. Grace would be grace with or without faith.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 35 of 54 (429037)
10-18-2007 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by itrownot
10-18-2007 12:29 PM


itrownot writes:

... you can call it a sale as opposed to a gift if you like.

Just to be clear, I'm not the one who's saying that grace is a sale. I'm saying it would be a sale if Paul's words were interpreted as most Paulians do (and as you seem to do).

I'm saying that if grace is truly grace, then faith doesn't enter into it and we have to find a meaning for "through faith" that's a few fathoms deeper.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 42 of 54 (429058)
10-18-2007 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by itrownot
10-18-2007 1:37 PM


itrownot writes:

You seem to be wholly offended that God didn't simply wave a wand over you to make you pure.

No, I'm saying that that's exactly what He did do: He made us all pure. By grace, for no particular reason, He pre-forgave us for everything we do wrong. It's our responsibility to do as little wrong as possible and to try to fix what we do do wrong, for our own sake and for our neighbours' sake - not for His sake.

The fact that you must exercise faith as a condition of your salvation does not diminish the measure of grace that was afforded to you by one iota.

Putting any kind of condition on grace would nullify it completely.

You are forgetting or ignoring the fact that, as a beneficary of this plan of salvation, you have been shown unmerited favor by God.

Actually, you're the one who's ignoring that. We have been shown unmerited favour by God - unmerited by our actions and unmerited by our faith.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 44 of 54 (429061)
10-18-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by itrownot
10-18-2007 1:47 PM


itrownot writes:

... I suggest you come up for air and look closer to the surface....

I scratched the surface a long time ago. You don't find gold just lying around waiting to be picked up. You have to dig for it. :)

Again, just parse the sentence. Tthere's no great mystery to it at all, so quit making it so difficult!

The topic is about questioning the assumptions of faith, not swallowing them hook, line and sinker.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 47 of 54 (429075)
10-18-2007 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by itrownot
10-18-2007 2:18 PM


itrownot writes:

Are you only just toying with me?

I'm trying to get you to think instead of just parroting the same tired old dogma. I thought that was what the topic was about.

Now you've accused me, among other things, of ignoring the fact that I have been shown unmerited favor by God, and then you proceed to restate the very point I made in my previous post.

I don't know where you get that idea. Maybe I'm being too gentle. :)

I'm saying that faith doesn't matter.

In the context of the topic, I'm saying we should question all assumptions about faith, especially our own. Instead of perpetually suffering from beam-in-the-eye syndrome, we should be asking others to question our own assumptions. I'd be only too happy if you'd point out any assumptions I'm making so we can question them together.

I'm saying that faith doesn't matter. Is that where I'm repeating you?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 48 of 54 (429079)
10-18-2007 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by itrownot
10-18-2007 2:35 PM


itrownot writes:

How ironic...you're debating grace, yet you are entirely ungracious...

Grace cometh from God, not from Ringo.

... to someone who only wanted to help you to understand a passage in which you were obviously over your head.

I thought I made it clear that I had your "understanding" of that passage a long, long time ago. I've moved on. The focus of the topic is (I think) to move on from knee-jerk YEC-type "understanding" and to try to understand what we understand.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 52 of 54 (429477)
10-20-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by bdfoster
10-20-2007 1:17 AM


Re: Paul spins it
bdfoster writes:

Righteousnes is the currency that buys justification or salvation and we don't have it. So God gave some to Abraham. The price that is paid for our salvation is not faith, it's the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

Do you really see a difference between that funny-money accounting and YEC theology?

...for Paul justification would be impossible without the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

Isn't that what we're talking about here? "Indispensible" assumptions?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by bdfoster, posted 10-20-2007 1:17 AM bdfoster has not yet responded

  
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