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Author Topic:   Wholley Jesus!
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 1 of 76 (429210)
10-18-2007 8:28 PM


I was taught the story of Jesus as an example of how to live one's life in righteousness. I was also taught living in this way was my ticket to heaven. I think I was duped!
The whole story was not told or rather the interpretations mainly cover only two parts of his life. The life lived in righteousness and the afterlife in heaven. These aspects cover only cause and consequence. The cause was Jesus'life lived and the consequence was the reward of heaven.
In reality, his life as a mortal consisted of three parts. The cause was his righteousness. The effect was some loved and followed him whilst others feared and hated him. The consequence was cruxifiction.
All aspects of humanity follow this principle of cause, effect and consequence. The whole of Jesus' life story, taken from an objective perspective and using this principle, could present a whole new meanings to life and humanity.
This concept will be difficult to take for 'creationists' and maybe even 'evolutionists'. However, I simply think a different perspective is worth discussing and could promote some outside of the box thinking.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 10-19-2007 5:01 AM pelican has replied
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 10-19-2007 5:01 AM pelican has replied
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 10-19-2007 12:27 PM pelican has replied
 Message 52 by Equinox, posted 10-26-2007 12:39 PM pelican has replied
 Message 76 by pelican, posted 01-27-2008 9:20 PM pelican has not replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 76 (429304)
10-19-2007 4:53 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 76 (429307)
10-19-2007 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
10-18-2007 8:28 PM


Three parts, or two?
All aspects of humanity follow this principle of cause, effect and consequence. The whole of Jesus' life story, taken from an objective perspective and using this principle, could present a whole new meanings to life and humanity.
I think I would not agree with your three-part premise. I would say that the effect of each action is the cause of another.
(Cause: Jesus preached his message.)Effect:
(Cause: some people didn't like it.)Effect:
(Cause: Those people crucified him.)Effect:
(Cause: A belief system built up around this)Effect:
... et cetera.
Let me ask you this:
If I am walking in the woods, and trip on a tree branch and break my ankle, what is the cause, what is the effect, and what is the consequence? And what becomes of the consequence? Is that the end of the chain? How do we determine where one chain ends and another begins?
Jon
Edited by Jon, : Subtitle & signature

In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
En el mundo hay multitud de idiomas, y cada uno tiene su propio significado. - I Corintios 14:10
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
A devout people with its back to the wall can be pushed deeper and deeper into hardening religious nativism, in the end even preferring national suicide to religious compromise. - Colin Wells Sailing from Byzantium

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pelican, posted 10-18-2007 8:28 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 10-19-2007 5:04 AM Jon has replied
 Message 7 by pelican, posted 10-19-2007 6:17 AM Jon has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 76 (429308)
10-19-2007 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
10-18-2007 8:28 PM


Wholly Holy Moley
dameeva writes:
I was taught the story of Jesus as an example of how to live one's life in righteousness. I was also taught living in this way was my ticket to heaven. I think I was duped!
Phat writes:
How so? Did you feel cheated as to a desired effect?
The whole story was not told or rather the interpretations mainly cover only two parts of his life. The life lived in righteousness and the afterlife in heaven. These aspects cover only cause and consequence. The cause was Jesus'life lived and the consequence was the reward of heaven.
Phat writes:
Even if heaven was not the consequence, the cause seems valid...
In reality, his life as a mortal consisted of three parts. The cause was his righteousness. The effect was some loved and followed him whilst others feared and hated him. The consequence was cruxifiction.
Phat writes:
So is it appropriate to speculate on the effect being different for those who loved/followed Him versus those who feared/hated Him?
All aspects of humanity follow this principle of cause, effect and consequence. The whole of Jesus' life story, taken from an objective perspective and using this principle, could present a whole new meanings to life and humanity.
Phat writes:
Its your topic! Take that ball and run with it!
This concept will be difficult to take for 'creationists' and maybe even 'evolutionists'. However, I simply think a different perspective is worth discussing and could promote some outside of the box thinking
Tell us more about what you believe. Is Jesus a symbol of a life for us to live?
Is Jesus alive or is this relevant to our lives?
Is Jesus an example or a relationship?

Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut!
Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pelican, posted 10-18-2007 8:28 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by pelican, posted 10-19-2007 7:27 AM Phat has replied
 Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-20-2007 12:21 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 76 (429309)
10-19-2007 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jon
10-19-2007 5:01 AM


Re: Three parts, or two?
Jon writes:
If I am walking in the woods, and trip on a tree branch and break my ankle, what is the cause, what is the effect, and what is the consequence? And what becomes of the consequence? Is that the end of the chain? How do we determine where one chain ends and another begins?
CAUSE: Ignorant of tree branch (or distracted)
EFFECT: Awareness of ignorance and/or distraction
Consequence: Depends how the individual takes the lesson.
Life is a series of causes, effects, and human interpretations of consequence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 10-19-2007 5:01 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Jon, posted 10-19-2007 5:08 AM Phat has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 76 (429310)
10-19-2007 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
10-19-2007 5:04 AM


Re: Three parts, or two?
Thank you for not answering the rest of my question:
quote:
And what becomes of the consequence? Is that the end of the chain? How do we determine where one chain ends and another begins?
If you can't answer these questions, then you cannot claim that there is a distinct cause, effect, consequence, and so your enumeration of each, then, becomes invalid.
To substantiate your assigning of cause, effect, consequence, you need to first show that they exist as three distinct things, and how that in doing so they allow the world to run.
Jon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 10-19-2007 5:04 AM Phat has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 7 of 76 (429319)
10-19-2007 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jon
10-19-2007 5:01 AM


Re: Three parts, or two?
You call it a chain. I call it a process. The process is always cause, effect and consequence. They may not be the desired effects or consequences and can be manipulated but nevertheless, the cause, effect and consequence 'chain' runs throughout life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 10-19-2007 5:01 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Jon, posted 10-19-2007 2:59 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 8 of 76 (429324)
10-19-2007 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
10-19-2007 5:01 AM


Re: Wholly Holy Moley
Love your title. I believe Jesus life was a general example of the causes, effects and consequences of the human belief system.
For example one belief he practised and taught was to turn the other cheek. Very noble, but the effect can be that you get slapped again and it may only be the beginning of a beating. The possible consequences of such noble actions are omitted or honoured by martyrdom.
Jesus' belief of 'love your enemies' was the cause of his torture and death. His righteousness was surely abused. He had the power to save himself but we are taught he died for our sins as the reason.
Could the reason he did not save himself be because he would not change his belief system? Could the cause have been because he would not harm others in doing so? Could the story of Jesus' life be an example not of goodness, mercy and righteousness but one of self creation?
Following the beliefs of Jesus in todays' society generally leads to suffering in one way or another and the promise of a ticket to heaven is no consolation. A life of suffering, as Jesus did, leads to more suffering. Hasn't huamnity suffered enough?
The whole truth of Jesus life purpose could surely open up a whole new reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 10-19-2007 5:01 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 10-19-2007 11:44 AM pelican has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 76 (429342)
10-19-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by pelican
10-19-2007 7:27 AM


Re: Wholly Holy Moley
dameeva writes:
The whole truth of Jesus life purpose could surely open up a whole new reality.
Do you personally see Jesus as a historical character to be analyzed or a living character that you can interact with today?
And...does my question have any relevance to your intended discussion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by pelican, posted 10-19-2007 7:27 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by pelican, posted 10-19-2007 9:49 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 10 of 76 (429350)
10-19-2007 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
10-18-2007 8:28 PM


dameeva writes:
The cause was his righteousness. The effect was some loved and followed him whilst others feared and hated him. The consequence was cruxifiction.
I don't see why you make a distinction between effect and consequences.
Jesus' righteousness caused love in some and hate in others. The love caused emulation, the hate caused crucifixion. Both the emulation and the crucifixion caused spreading of the word, which caused more love and more hate.
Cause and effect or cause and consquences. What's the difference?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pelican, posted 10-18-2007 8:28 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by pelican, posted 10-19-2007 10:30 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 76 (429388)
10-19-2007 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by pelican
10-19-2007 6:17 AM


Re: Three parts, or two?
The process is always cause, effect and consequence.
Prove.
It.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by pelican, posted 10-19-2007 6:17 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by pelican, posted 10-19-2007 10:10 PM Jon has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 12 of 76 (429438)
10-19-2007 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
10-19-2007 11:44 AM


Re: Wholly Holy Moley
I don't see the authenticity of Jesus as relevent. However, the interpretations of his teachings and examples from the story of Jesus shape the lives of many. It is the interpretation I am addressing.
If the life story of Jesus is being followed as a perfect example of how to live, then the whole story of cause, effect and consequence in his life needs to be fully understood. I don't believe it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 10-19-2007 11:44 AM Phat has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 13 of 76 (429443)
10-19-2007 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jon
10-19-2007 2:59 PM


Re: Three parts, or two?
Cause : my post
Effect : your reply
Consequence : dialogue between strangers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Jon, posted 10-19-2007 2:59 PM Jon has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 14 of 76 (429449)
10-19-2007 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
10-19-2007 12:27 PM


The whole truth
Ringo "[I don't see why you make a distinction between effect and consequences.]"
I honestly don't see why you don't! Cause, effect and consequence is a natural progression throughout life. The issue here is the effect and consequence on Jesus himself by living a righteous life.
I believe living a righteous life as percieved through Jesus causes immense suffering needlessly. If Jesus is to be held in high regard then we better know the full implications of follow my leader.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 10-19-2007 12:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 10-19-2007 11:03 PM pelican has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 15 of 76 (429454)
10-19-2007 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by pelican
10-19-2007 10:30 PM


Re: The whole truth
dameeva writes:
quote:
I don't see why you make a distinction between effect and consequences.
I honestly don't see why you don't!
Looking at your reply to Jon:
quote:
Cause : my post
Effect : your reply
Consequence : dialogue between strangers
Jon's reply is a consequence of your post just as much as it's an effect of your post. It looks like you're needlessly (mis)using three terms for two concepts.
I believe living a righteous life as percieved through Jesus causes immense suffering needlessly. If Jesus is to be held in high regard then we better know the full implications of follow my leader.
I'm having difficulty digesting your word salad. What is a righteous life "as perceived through Jesus"? Who is suffering needlessly? What are the "full implications"? Are implications different from effects and/or consequences?
Edited by Ringo, : Clarified "reply" --> "post".

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by pelican, posted 10-19-2007 10:30 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by pelican, posted 10-20-2007 1:07 AM ringo has replied

  
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