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Author Topic:   Wholley Jesus!
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 31 of 76 (429792)
10-21-2007 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
10-21-2007 11:07 AM


Re: The whole truth
Ringo it's all been in plain English. Just because you do not understand it doesn't make me stupid.
I did my homework on lateral thinking. Apparently some chap named Edward de Bono coined the phrase. Lateral thinking sees from a different perspective. It seeks problems and solutions from different angles. This is what I am attempting to do here.
However, from personal experience I do know how hard it is to change an ingrained perspective without a physical experience to support it.
Can you bear with me and try to accept that, for the sake of this argument, the premise of cause, effect and consequence are present and by applying it to the knowledge we have of the Jesus story may uncover previously unaware information?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 10-21-2007 11:07 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 10-21-2007 7:21 PM pelican has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16677
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 32 of 76 (429795)
10-21-2007 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by pelican
10-21-2007 7:02 PM


Re: The whole truth
dameeva writes:

Ringo it's all been in plain English. Just because you do not understand it doesn't make me stupid.

I didn't say you were stupid. I said you're not communicating successfully.

I did my homework on lateral thinking. Apparently some chap named Edward de Bono coined the phrase. Lateral thinking sees from a different perspective. It seeks problems and solutions from different angles. This is what I am attempting to do here.

Better read de Bono again. Lateral thinking is about getting a different perspective and then linking those new ideas to "the box". It's not about wandering around aimlessly in box-free territory.

However, from personal experience I do know how hard it is to change an ingrained perspective without a physical experience to support it.

"Ingrained perspectives" are not the problem here. We can't communicate about any perspective unless you can be clearer on what your terminology means.

Can you bear with me and try to accept that, for the sake of this argument, the premise of cause, effect and consequence are present...

Certainly not. I've been asking you what you think the distinction is between effect and consequence (and I think Jon is asking the same thing). I don't see how we can just accept that "it is" before you tell us what it is.

... and by applying it to the knowledge we have of the Jesus story may uncover previously unaware information?

I think we'd be much more likely to "uncover previously unaware information" without your mangled notions of "effect" and "consequences".

How about giving us an example of some "previously unaware information" about Jesus?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by pelican, posted 10-21-2007 7:02 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 12:44 AM ringo has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 33 of 76 (429798)
10-21-2007 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
10-21-2007 4:04 PM


Re: One of these things is too much like the other...
Are you a comedian or just a cheeky bugar who makes me laugh? I am one of the latter.
Jon, you are missing the most important point I am trying to make. The cause is the point at which you choose. The point at where your attention is drawn. From that point you take it two steps further in any direction and the cause, effect and consequence will reveal itself.

As was previously stated we could name them action, reaction and a reaction to the previous reaction but it doesn't roll very smoothly. It is quite simply three steps in a chain of events chosen from the point of attention.

This way of examination may show that life is a series of cycles that would give us greater control and more choices in our lives. Two links cannot form a chain. Using two would never get us past linear thinking. You do need three, minimum. They all link together and it is HOW they are linked together that forms the basis of this topic.

In conclusion, if all the replies continue in this vein of splitting hairs then I might as well piss off. ha ha ha ha ha

Edited by dameeva, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 10-21-2007 4:04 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 4082 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 34 of 76 (429868)
10-22-2007 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by pelican
10-20-2007 9:55 PM


Re: The whole truth
dameeva writes:

I believe we do not have the whole story, especially not the negative effects of Jesus' belief system.


I agree with what Jon has said on this. There is certainly a lot that the Bible answers on this aspect (although a lot of it isn't answered).

dameeva writes:

...the honourable and noble teaching of turning the other cheek is so lacking in cause, effect and consequence. What is the basis for such a teaching? What caused a person to slap another initially? What does the obviously angry person do when you turn the other cheek? More than likely slap it again. Very negative, especially for the victim\martyr. If you are the one being slapped, don't you have a choice?


The basis for the teaching is passivity. In both Luke (Luk 6:27 & 6:35) and Matthew (Mat 5:44), Jesus says that you should love your enemies. Yes, it is very much implied that the person will slap your cheek again. Don't hit them back, and don't even get angry (Mat 5:22).

This may be bad for you, yes, but that doesn't matter because they are the one sinning by hitting you. If you die, you will be rewarded. Relax.

And yes, you still have a choice. Just you will be punished if you make the wrong one.

dameeva writes:

Could it be that Jesus was there to give us more freedom of choice, rather than restrict us to following?


Certainly not.

Matthew 5:18-19 says:

quote:
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Obey the commandments, or you will be punished. That's pretty simple.

dameeva writes:

Could his teachings have been for us to learn to think for ourselves?


Of course we have to think for ourselves, but we also have to come to the right conclusions. Jesus often spoke kindly of servants and children, who obeyed what their Lord wanted.

dameeva writes:

Maybe the picture was deliberately incomplete for us to use our imaginations?


I doubt it. Our imaginations are corruptible by the Devil, and our nature is imperfect. As such, I find it hard to believe that the God of the Bible would want us to use our imagination to fill in anything important.

Now, if we were to use prayer or revelation to fill in gaps, that I could see.


Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by pelican, posted 10-20-2007 9:55 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by pelican, posted 10-22-2007 11:09 PM Doddy has not yet responded

    
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 35 of 76 (429995)
10-22-2007 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Doddy
10-22-2007 5:57 AM


Re: The whole truth
[The basis for the teaching is passivity. In both Luke (Luk 6:27 & 6:35) and Matthew (Mat 5:44), Jesus says that you should love your enemies. Yes, it is very much implied that the person will slap your cheek again. Don't hit them back, and don't even get angry (Mat 5:22).]

Although you are way off the intended topic I would just like to comment on your quote. There is another side to this teaching of passivity. "Being slapped once is abuse. Allowing to be slapped twice is condoning abuse. Abuse is not tolerated in my world."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Doddy, posted 10-22-2007 5:57 AM Doddy has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 36 of 76 (430011)
10-23-2007 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
10-21-2007 7:21 PM


The other side of Jesus
A plausable interpretation of Jesus in the story as told in the bible: a review from a personal perspective

Jesus was a bordering lunatic and paid the highest price for it. He suffered and died horribly for a belief system created from a naieve point of view. He had the power to save himself but he wanted humanity to 'choose' to follow him. What an idiot! Who would choose to be persecuted and then cruxified to death?
It appears he was under some illusion that his suffering and death would save humanity from sin. Did it work? Two thousand years and humanity is suffering more than ever from the sins of humanity.
His beliefs included turning the other cheek and loving his enemies. At worst, the problem with following them is that those who don't follow these teachings are sometimes beaten and killed by those preaching the holy scriptures. In this case, his beliefs created sins.
Holy shit! In other words.........the goodies become baddies and force the baddies to conform to become goodies. Once mission is accomplished, the original goodies, who turned baddies for a cause, then revert to being goodies The goodies are allowed to be baddies because their belief system is the right one. Ah, now I see how it all works. The ones with the most power rule.
Thanks Jesus you managed to divide humanity single handedly. That's power!

I'm sure you have a totally different perspective and different ideas and I would love to hear them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 10-21-2007 7:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 10-23-2007 1:35 AM pelican has responded
 Message 38 by Doddy, posted 10-23-2007 1:36 AM pelican has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16677
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 37 of 76 (430023)
10-23-2007 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by pelican
10-23-2007 12:44 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:

He had the power to save himself but he wanted humanity to 'choose' to follow him. What an idiot! Who would choose to be persecuted and then cruxified to death?

The choice goes all the way back to free will in the Garden of Eden. Jesus didn't want people to "follow Him" in the sense that professing Christians say it - by braying about their beliefs. He wanted them to follow the instructions that they had already been given, instructions that were for their own good, not His.

It appears he was under some illusion that his suffering and death would save humanity from sin.

A lot of professing Christians are under that illusion. I see no reason to think that He was. If He was the Son of God, He certainly ought to have known that nobody needs to be saved "from sin".


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 12:44 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 10:44 AM ringo has responded

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 4082 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 38 of 76 (430024)
10-23-2007 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by pelican
10-23-2007 12:44 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:

His beliefs included turning the other cheek and loving his enemies. At worst, the problem with following them is that those who don't follow these teachings are sometimes beaten and killed by those preaching the holy scriptures. In this case, his beliefs created sins.


That wasn't because of what Jesus taught. If it found any support in the Bible, it would be from the intolerance of people that followed him.

Nothing Jesus said could justify killing non-believers.


Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 12:44 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 11:05 AM Doddy has not yet responded
 Message 53 by Equinox, posted 10-26-2007 12:58 PM Doddy has responded

    
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 39 of 76 (430078)
10-23-2007 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
10-23-2007 1:35 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
This is solely about the adult life of Jesus beginning with the belief system Jesus lived by and the repercussions of his belief system in his life. The main justifcation of following Jesus is the promise of heaven after death or an afterlife.
Just supposing we have only one life and only one shot at it. Suppose there is no heaven and no afterlife. They haven't been proven as existing and if this is the case, life would be pointless and especially so if it is one of oppression. Not a pleasant proposition but isn't this life the only one we are truly aware of?
If this is the case and if there is a god, then why have we been created?
Could there be a completly different meaning or interpretation than we have been previously taught to believe?
Could the Jesus story, looked at from different angles and incorporating the whole picture of positive and negative effects reveal HOW life really works?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 10-23-2007 1:35 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 10-23-2007 11:25 AM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 40 of 76 (430087)
10-23-2007 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Doddy
10-23-2007 1:36 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
Doddy:[That wasn't because of what Jesus taught. If it found any support in the Bible, it would be from the intolerance of people that followed him.]

The cause (of non-believers suffering) was still the enforcement of his teachings, by his followers. You would think that Jesus would have seen that coming.

Doddy:[Nothing Jesus said could justify killing non-believers.]

Nevertheless, it still happens.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Doddy, posted 10-23-2007 1:36 AM Doddy has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16677
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 41 of 76 (430089)
10-23-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by pelican
10-23-2007 10:44 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:

The main justifcation of following Jesus is the promise of heaven after death or an afterlife.

That's definitely in-the-box thinking.

Suppose there is no heaven and no afterlife. They haven't been proven as existing and if this is the case, life would be pointless and especially so if it is one of oppression.

The "point" of life is much more meaningful if we create it ourselves than if we have it spoonfed to us by some flying spook. Oppression is caused by conflict between different people's points. Jesus' point was to get different people's points to live together in peace, without oppressing each other.

If this is the case and if there is a god, then why have we been created?

If there is no God, we haven't been "created" and external purpose is irrelevant.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 10:44 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 7:38 PM ringo has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 42 of 76 (430207)
10-23-2007 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
10-23-2007 11:25 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
Ringo [Oppression is caused by conflict between different people's points. Jesus' point was to get different people's points to live together in peace, without oppressing each other.]

That may well have been the intention but by teaching the 'right' way and the interpretation of the 'right' way and the following of the 'right' way has, in fact, had the opposite effect. The beliefs derived from 'Jesus' actually create those willing to be oppressed. This is just one of the negative effects from the given interpretations of the Jesus life story. It is appearing he caused more harm than good.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 10-23-2007 11:25 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 10-23-2007 8:29 PM pelican has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16677
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 43 of 76 (430213)
10-23-2007 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by pelican
10-23-2007 7:38 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:

... by teaching the 'right' way and the interpretation of the 'right' way and the following of the 'right' way....

Not The Right Way™. A better way.

(For somebody who wants to think outside the box, you sure seem steeped in fundy dogma.)

The beliefs derived from 'Jesus' actually create those willing to be oppressed.

It's not "willing to be opressed" so much as willing to try a different response to oppression.

Jesus said:

quote:
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

As Gandhi explained it, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Jesus' alternative doesn't invite oppression. It discourages the endless spiral of retribution and encourages a more constructive approach.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 7:38 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by pelican, posted 10-24-2007 6:51 PM ringo has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 44 of 76 (430346)
10-24-2007 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
10-23-2007 8:29 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
Ringo [Jesus' alternative doesn't invite oppression. It discourages the endless spiral of retribution and encourages a more constructive approach.]

Does it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 10-23-2007 8:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 10-24-2007 7:10 PM pelican has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16677
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 45 of 76 (430351)
10-24-2007 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by pelican
10-24-2007 6:51 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:

quote:
Jesus' alternative doesn't invite oppression. It discourages the endless spiral of retribution and encourages a more constructive approach.

Does it?

Yes.

Suppose you knock my eye out. If I knock yours out in return, that leaves both of us less capable of taking care of our families, etc. There's also a chance that you'll retaliate and I'll counter-retaliate and so on until one (or both) of us is crippled or dead.

On the other hand, if I turn the other cheek, there's at least a chance that you'll stop your attack. Turning the other cheek is an attempt to minimize the damage.

The question you should be asking is: How many cheeks do I have? Do you turn the other cheek once? Or is there always an other cheek?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by pelican, posted 10-24-2007 6:51 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by pelican, posted 10-24-2007 11:00 PM ringo has responded
 Message 48 by pelican, posted 10-25-2007 8:43 AM ringo has responded

  
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