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Author Topic:   Does A Biblical Historical Record Exist?
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 55 (430001)
10-22-2007 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
10-22-2007 11:33 PM


Or to tell the TRUTH
America's history books of today differ somewhat from the history books of the early to middle 20th century. Some refer to modern historians as revisionists. Most of our public school books have been revised from older ones so as to be more politically correct or more compatible to the civil rights movement, to emphasise certain aspects pertaining to civil rights, creationism, black history, the Indian wars, founding fathers etc.
I hope you can support that assertion, because it looks like most revisions are to finally tell the truth about what happened.
1. Does a Biblical historical record exist?
Of course. It is a history of how a people viewed themselves and their world, a Mythology, Folk Tales.
2. Must a historical record be imperically substantiated to be 100% accurate to be regarded as a historical record? If not, what percentage of a record must be imperically substantiated accurate to be regarded as a historical record?
That depends on whether you are looking to know if what is written is what was originally written or whether it actually reflects what really happened. For the later you MUST have outside corroborating evidence.
3. Certain books of the OT are nearly all alleged history such as the Chronicals, Kings, Numbers, etc. Must these books be imperically verified before Biblical creationist members are allowed to refer to the Bible as a historical record in discussion and debate?
Absolutely. They absolutely must have outside corroboration to be considered as accurate history.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 10-22-2007 11:33 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 10-23-2007 10:01 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 55 (430075)
10-23-2007 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
10-23-2007 10:01 AM


Re: Or to tell the TRUTH
Please note in the OP that the topic calls for focus on the three questions. We all are aware of revisions in modern history. That was used as an analogy, not intended to be debated in depth. You do agree that revisions have been made since the early to mid 20th century. Having been in school in the 1940s to the 1950s, and having noted the histories of my own children and since, I'm quite aware of the revisions.
You seem to love making assertions and then refusing to support them. Is this yet another such instance?
In the first box you say it is a historical record based on how a people viewed themselves and the world. In the second box you say it depends on accuracy. Which is it? The question is Must a historical record be 100% accurate to be regarded a historical record
As I tried to point out, that depends on what you mean by "historical record?"
Folk tale, mythology, legends, fantasy can be historical records. They explain how a people viewed themselves and the world. They can be totally fiction and still be a historical record.
One good example is the Biblical Flood account. It is a historical record because it is a folk tale of a people that they used to help identify themselves. But it is also one that has been show to be 100% false as far as being factually accurate.
While historical records might not be supported by external evidence, to be considered as more than myth there should be some external evidence to support them, and they should not be totally refuted. That is why some of the things mentioned in the post-David Bible appear to factual, many other things such as the Flood, Exodus, Conquest of Canaan have been conclusively shown to be nothing but myth.
Now you're implying that they must be totally accurate before Biblicalist creationists may do what you did, i.e to refer to them as a historical record. You're statements are contradictory. You need to clarify your position. As it stands you yourself stated that it is a historical record of sorts but now you imply that it's ok for you to say so but not for Biblical creationists to regard it as such. Remember, this discussion is not to verify any historical record. It is to discuss what may regarded as a historical record in speech here at EvC.
Not at all contradictory Buz. You may refer to the Bible as a Historic Record, no one is saying it is not. However if by "Historical Record" you mean something that actually happened, then yes, you must provide the external corroborative material.
Also, it should actually be in the Bible. For example in the past you have mentioned some imagined "Vapor Canopy." Since that is not even in the Bible, it cannot be considered even as Biblical Mythology.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 10-23-2007 10:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 55 (430540)
10-25-2007 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Buzsaw
10-25-2007 9:47 PM


Re: Biblical Record Not Blind Faith Based
Yes there are problematic areas which leave questions just as with any ideology, but when you add up all of the verifiable corroborative data in the record and add that to the social and spiritual benefits the book affords, blind faith as you have implied in your statement is just not what motivates us.
But simply claiming "verifiable corroborative data" means nothing, you need to present the evidence for examination. In addition, "the social and spiritual benefits the book affords" add nothing to support the validity of any claims.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 10-25-2007 9:47 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 10-25-2007 11:01 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 55 (430542)
10-25-2007 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Buzsaw
10-25-2007 11:01 PM


Re: Biblical Record Not Blind Faith Based
The only reason I meantioned these is that those of us who have experienced these regard them as being corroborative to the physical and historical pertaining to the record.
It really doesn't matter what YOU think is corroborative, it has to be something that anyone can see is corroborative. "The social and spiritual benefits the book affords" simply are worthless as corroboration. They are simply Blind Faith and by bringing them up you are admitting that your only support is Blind Faith Based.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 10-25-2007 11:01 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 55 (430691)
10-26-2007 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Buzsaw
10-26-2007 7:39 PM


When corroboration is just silly.
The problem Buz is you mention things that are simply so silly that most folks BullShit detectors go off the scale.
You say stuff like "According to clear Genesis implications, there being no rainbow, a mist type rain watered the earth. " which is so totally absurd that it is beyond being laughable.
Instead of a "mist type rain' being indicative of no rainbow, a mist assures a rainbow even when it is NOT raining. Take a ride on Queen of the Mists sometime.
The Genesis record clearly depicts a terrarium type planet with enough of a canopy in the atmosphere to collect the evaporated moisture which would in turn fall as a mist back to the earth.
Please post the relevant verses from Genesis that support your assertion.
The length of life claimed and the evidence of large animals etc also imply a super climate before the flood.
Please present the scientific model that supports that assertion.
Go figure. You should be science apprised enough to know that a radically different atmosphere would effect dating methodology designed for present day conditions if such an atmosphere existed.
Please provide the model that supports that assertion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 10-26-2007 7:39 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 10-26-2007 8:12 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 55 (430700)
10-26-2007 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
10-26-2007 8:12 PM


Re: When corroboration is just silly.
Jar, you're another great example of what I just described. The Maid Of the Mist rainbow was due to bright sunshine above which would not have been the case before the flood, the sun being very dim due to a very large atmosphere due to the heat expanding the canopy higher up than what we have today. I've covered this elsewhere in the past.
I'm sorry Buz but that is nothing but nonsense piled on top of nonsense. Please show me both the scientific model that supports your assertions as well as the evidence.
You just keep making absurd assertion on top of absurd assertion. If you expand the fictional canopy (which you have never provided support for even existing) it becomes LESS dense.
And regardless, all it takes is one ray of sunshine and you get a rainbow.
So now maybe you will for once step up and present models that support or in your words, corroborate, ANYTHING at all.
But as pointed out in Message 32 we still need the relevant verses that support ...
buz writes:
The Genesis record clearly depicts a terrarium type planet with enough of a canopy in the atmosphere to collect the evaporated moisture which would in turn fall as a mist back to the earth.
...the scientific model and evidence that supports ...
buz writes:
The length of life claimed and the evidence of large animals etc also imply a super climate before the flood.
... the scientific model that supports ...
buz writes:
Go figure. You should be science apprised enough to know that a radically different atmosphere would effect dating methodology designed for present day conditions if such an atmosphere existed.
... as well as the evidence that
  • there was a flood
  • that the atmosphere was different before the flood
  • that lives were longer
  • that there were larger animals up until the flood
  • that the size and longevity of the animals was due to the specific composition of that atmosphere
  • that the specifics of that atmosphere will affect dating methods and effect ALL of the unrelated dating methods is such a way that they will still show the clear correlations we see today
I will be waiting for your information. Maybe for the first time, we will actually see a Type 2b Biblical Creationist.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 10-26-2007 8:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 55 (430709)
10-26-2007 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
10-26-2007 9:02 PM


So you are once again making unsupported assertions.
We are discussing the topic Buz. You continue to make unsupported assertions but NEVER support them.
The only reason I posted what I did about preflood is to counter the claims that I/we fundamentalists do not attemp to substantiate claims.
But you did mention the preflood and you did not attempt to "substantiate claims."
This is a pattern Buz, a consistent pattern.
Yes the Bible contains history, however if you expect anyone to take that history as anything more than myth, you will HAVE to provide the outside, independent corroborating data.
So far in this thread you have not even been able to provide the passages from the Bible that support your assertions.
Have you ever read the Bible Buz?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 10-26-2007 9:02 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 55 (433193)
11-10-2007 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Lysimachus
11-10-2007 2:35 PM


On evidence
Perhaps you could actually start a thread and present evidence that can be examined and discussed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Lysimachus, posted 11-10-2007 2:35 PM Lysimachus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Lysimachus, posted 11-10-2007 2:54 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 55 (433196)
11-10-2007 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Lysimachus
11-10-2007 2:54 PM


Re: On evidence
Sorry but so far I know of absolutely no evidence there was some Exodus, so I cannot in any honesty start a thread based on asserting a folk tale is factual.
On the other hand you and Buz and a few others pop in every once in awhile with the assertion that some evidence exists, however in the years I have been here, not one of you have ever actually presented anything that stood up to examination.
If there is some actual evidence, present it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Lysimachus, posted 11-10-2007 2:54 PM Lysimachus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Lysimachus, posted 11-10-2007 3:14 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 55 (433202)
11-10-2007 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Lysimachus
11-10-2007 3:14 PM


Re: On evidence
Thread proposed.
It will be interesting to see if you guys finally present some evidence that stands up to examination.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Lysimachus, posted 11-10-2007 3:14 PM Lysimachus has not replied

  
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