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Author Topic:   Wholley Jesus!
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 34 of 76 (429868)
10-22-2007 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by pelican
10-20-2007 9:55 PM


Re: The whole truth
dameeva writes:
I believe we do not have the whole story, especially not the negative effects of Jesus' belief system.
I agree with what Jon has said on this. There is certainly a lot that the Bible answers on this aspect (although a lot of it isn't answered).
dameeva writes:
...the honourable and noble teaching of turning the other cheek is so lacking in cause, effect and consequence. What is the basis for such a teaching? What caused a person to slap another initially? What does the obviously angry person do when you turn the other cheek? More than likely slap it again. Very negative, especially for the victim\martyr. If you are the one being slapped, don't you have a choice?
The basis for the teaching is passivity. In both Luke (Luk 6:27 & 6:35) and Matthew (Mat 5:44), Jesus says that you should love your enemies. Yes, it is very much implied that the person will slap your cheek again. Don't hit them back, and don't even get angry (Mat 5:22).
This may be bad for you, yes, but that doesn't matter because they are the one sinning by hitting you. If you die, you will be rewarded. Relax.
And yes, you still have a choice. Just you will be punished if you make the wrong one.
dameeva writes:
Could it be that Jesus was there to give us more freedom of choice, rather than restrict us to following?
Certainly not.
Matthew 5:18-19 says:
quote:
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Obey the commandments, or you will be punished. That's pretty simple.
dameeva writes:
Could his teachings have been for us to learn to think for ourselves?
Of course we have to think for ourselves, but we also have to come to the right conclusions. Jesus often spoke kindly of servants and children, who obeyed what their Lord wanted.
dameeva writes:
Maybe the picture was deliberately incomplete for us to use our imaginations?
I doubt it. Our imaginations are corruptible by the Devil, and our nature is imperfect. As such, I find it hard to believe that the God of the Bible would want us to use our imagination to fill in anything important.
Now, if we were to use prayer or revelation to fill in gaps, that I could see.

Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!
What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by pelican, posted 10-20-2007 9:55 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by pelican, posted 10-22-2007 11:09 PM Doddy has not replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 38 of 76 (430024)
10-23-2007 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by pelican
10-23-2007 12:44 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:
His beliefs included turning the other cheek and loving his enemies. At worst, the problem with following them is that those who don't follow these teachings are sometimes beaten and killed by those preaching the holy scriptures. In this case, his beliefs created sins.
That wasn't because of what Jesus taught. If it found any support in the Bible, it would be from the intolerance of people that followed him.
Nothing Jesus said could justify killing non-believers.

Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!
What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 12:44 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 11:05 AM Doddy has not replied
 Message 53 by Equinox, posted 10-26-2007 12:58 PM Doddy has replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 54 of 76 (430895)
10-28-2007 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Equinox
10-26-2007 12:58 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
Equinox writes:
You may dispute that Augustine and others made a reasonable conclusion based on Luke 14, but being that people have for centuries used Jesus’ words (often citing specific verses) to justify killing non-believers makes it hard to make that claim you made above.
Yeah, I guess it does.
But it's not just a bad conclusion, it's flat out contrary to what Jesus said. In Luke 9:1-5, we read of Jesus instructing his disciples to go and preach. What does he say to do when the people don't convert?
"And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them."
Absolutely nothing about threatening people or torturing people to make them more receptive. Jesus just says to leave them alone.
But I guess you do have a point. People could twist the phone directory to suit their needs if they wanted to.

Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!
This is what we are up against. There are thousands around the world more being (home-)schooled in the same way. But the internet is far reaching! Teach evolution by joining the Evolution Education Wiki today!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Equinox, posted 10-26-2007 12:58 PM Equinox has not replied

  
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