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Author | Topic: What you want to know about Christ. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.1 |
'For the wages of sin is death...' Romans 6:23. 'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,' Romans 3:23. It doesn't matter who you are, if you live on earth, you have sinned, and you are not worthy of heaven, God and even life. This relies entirely on the amoral premise that anyone who worships someone other than the Judeo-Chrstian God, or covets another person's belongings, or makes an idol, is worthy of death. It relies on the retarded and amoral premise that, somehow, all of humanity bears responsibility for what two individuals supposedly did 6000 years ago, and that this great "crime" is worthy of death (the crime, of course, being mere disobedience over eating a fruit). The ridiculous Jewish/Christian guilt complex starts with faulty premises and runs them straight to their absolutely immoral conclusion.
So God has the right to take our lives because we have sinned, but He usually doesn't because of His love and grace. By this same idiotic logic, a parent should have the right to kill a child if the child disobeys even once, and the child lives only through the parent's "love and grace."
Death is never God's fault. Period. It is Satan's, and ours. If Lucifer had never become jealous of God, then he wouldn't have come to earth with sin. We don't have to do wrong, we choose to. Of course it's God's fault. He's the one who makes the damned rules! He could just say "Well, I didn't make you perfectly, so I forgive you." Or he could have, you know, not made ridiculously immoral rules that all carry a death sentence! And when God specifically slaughters all of the firstborn of Egypt as "punishment" for something he forced Pharoah to do, or when he floods the entire world, or commands the Hebrews to kill every man, married woman and male child (but take the unwed girls to be forced brides for raping), it's God's fault. No questions asked.
'For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, so that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.' John 3:16. God loves us so much that He died for us. Even if only one human had sinned, He still would have died. That's how much He loves you. He loves you so much that he sentences you to death for doing what he created you to do (we are incapable of never coveting what others have)? He loves you so much that he sends you to Hell (which the Bible explicitly states is an eternal lake of fire, not just a permanent death) if you don't believe in his particular fairy tale? He sacrifices himself to himself to pay the price he set in the first place, but resurrects himself after 3 days so that any "sacrifice" is more of a temporary, painful inconvenience? You're making statements that aren't supported by scripture, gen. You're not reading any of the text critically to see what it actually says, and you're wearing blinders to prevent you from seeing the atrocities. When you can't deny it, you try to say "well, it's okay if God does it," as if there is ever a justification for specifically murdering children or taking the girls of a defeated tribe as forced brides (in other words, they're going to be raped). Here's a little story: There's a woman, somewhere in the Southern US, who has a beautiful 6-year-old girl. She's happily married to a wonderful husband, and they are very active in their Church. In fact, the doctors told her a long time ago that she'd never have a baby - but they prayed and prayed, and God blessed them with their wonderful baby girl! Everyone agreed it was a miracle, and they thank God for their daughter every day. One day, the mother hears a voice from heaven. The voice tells her that she needs to take her daughter, who she loves very much, and draw a bath. She is then to drown her daughter as a sacrifice to God. The mother is very sad, because she loves her daughter. But she heard the voice of God, and her daughter was, after all, God's gift - He has the right to take it away. She draws a bath, and calls to her daughter. When the little girl asks her mother why she is crying, she lies and says she has something in her eye, but that it's bath time. Then she dunks her little girl's head in the water, and holds it there while she kicks and struggles. But wait! Suddenly she hears God's voice again, and this time the voice tells her that she's proven her faithfulness, and that she should stop drowning her daughter! She's so relieved to not have to kill her baby, and she thanks God for His mercy. She pulls the little girl from the water. She's coughing, and sputtering. She's absolutely terrified, becasue her own mother just nearly killed her. She's wet herself. For the rest of her life, she'll be terrified of any amount of standing water. She'll bear the emotional scars of being nearly murdered by her mother for the rest of her life. We would, of course, say that this woman had a mental disorder. Maybe postpartum depression, though 6 years is a bit late for that. The motehr would go to jail as soon as anyone found out about what had happened, her Church would pray for her while condemning her actions... ...all the while forgetting that God likes to do this sort of thing, as shown in Genesis 22:
quote: Think on that. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4980 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
I am not lying about what is in God's Holy Word. I didn't say you were, I said you are either correct, mistaken, or lying. If you are not lying then you are either correct or mistaken. We can easily check if you are correct or not by checking the references that you give to support what you claim is in the Bible.
I am not making things up. Well I think you are.
Please point out a post where I have. I already provided details, but I will outline them again for you. In post # 115 you claimed that: "But even some of the Egyptians painted blood on their doorposts and were spared. I am familiar with the prehistory books of the Hebrew Bible and this claim immediately caught my attention as it contradicts what I already know from the book of Exodus. However, I am not claiming to know the entire Bible so you may well have a reference form the Bible to support your claim that some Egyptians painted blood on their doorposts and were spared. But, as I posted in the reply to your post 115: Exodus 12:29-30 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead. Surely you agree at face value this reference contradicts your claim that some Egyptians were spared. As the Bible is full of contradictions it is perfectly possible that you have a reference that does say some Egyptians were saved by putting blood on their doorposts, thus I would appreciate chapter and verse from the Hebrew Bible that supports your claim. You also claim: " All of Egypt could have done this. They were given the choice." I also have trouble accepting that the Hebrew Bible contains this information since it appears quite explicitly that the Egyptians were not to be told: Exodus 12:3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. This mentions nothing about telling the Egyptians about God preparing to murder their children. So I am guessing that you must have read somewhere in the Bible that the Egyptians had been given a choice, why else would you make this claim? With this in mind, could you please provide the chapter and verse from the Hebrew Bible where you read it?
I have admitted things I am not sure about, if you would care to read my replys. I have read your replies and appreciate that you admit you were completely mistaken about the pharaoh having a choice to release the Israelites.
I am sincerely praying for you. Oh joy.
You have not gone to far to turn around and accept Jesus's gift of Salvation until the Second Coming, or when you die. Unless I have several labotomies, I won't be accepting anything Jesus offers. Anyway, I would appreciate the biblical references to support your two claims: 1. Egyptians painted blood on their doorposts2. The Egyptians had a choice to do this. Thanks.
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reiverix Member (Idle past 5839 days) Posts: 80 From: Central Ohio Joined: |
gen writes:
Highly unlikely if a god was with them.
1) Some or all of the Israelites saw the iron chariots, were frightened and ran away. gen writes:
Highly unlikely if a god was with them.
2) Some or all of the Israelites lost their faith in God when they saw the chariots, and althought they fought, they didn't win. gen writes:
Which makes no sense at all since god showed up. 3) God did not want the plains to be captured yet, and had other plans. I have another question. I hope you don't mind but I really am curious. If the slaughter of the Canaanites and the razing of Jericho were ordered by Satan, would you consider them evil acts?
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
gen writes: You have not gone to far to turn around and accept Jesus's gift of Salvation until the Second Coming, or when you die.
Brian writes: Unless I have several labotomies, I won't be accepting anything Jesus offers. It's not a lobotomy that you require before you accept anything that Jesus offers. It's circumcision. And that of the (thankfully you might say) spiritual kind. There is no need for (thankfully I might say) more than one. It's very difficult to imagine how anyone would accept what Jesus offers without one. To do so would be to be irrational. And I know you and I are not that. Otherwise you'd have an excuse. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
gen doesn't seem to be inclined to answer my question, so maybe you wil, iano.
So, how can I tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with Jesus/God and one I've imagined, or one that the Devil or a demon has caused to happen but makes me think is really from Jesus/God?
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Brian Member (Idle past 4980 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
It's not a lobotomy that you require before you accept anything that Jesus offers. It's circumcision. And that of the (thankfully you might say) spiritual kind. Well you can have your spiritual circumcision to go with your spiritual labotomoies.
To do so would be to be irrational. Ian, Christianity is most irrational and illogical belief system there is. It is utterly devoid of reasoning and has so many errors in its premises that I could drive a Guiness cart through them. In order to take Christianity seriously, you really need to have had some sort of psychological trauma, there's no other explanation for it.
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
schraf writes: gen doesn't seem to be inclined to answer my question, so maybe you will, iano. Sure, but you do remember we have had this discussion?
So, how can I tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with Jesus/God and one I've imagined, or one that the Devil or a demon has caused to happen but makes me think is really from Jesus/God? You'll probably remember this. If God of the Bible exists is there anything to prevent him from ensuring a person knows it is him and not another? The answer, clearly, is no. No one could build an evidential case stronger than he could. If he exists. You place the onus on me to be able to discern when it is clearly upon God to demonstrate himself. And it turns out he has - to me and many others. You shouldn't confuse our inability to empirically demonstrate our knowledgge to you with his ability to demonstrate himself spiritually to us. Man-dependant-upon-God is the fulcrum of salvation. In this matter of God revealing himself as in so many others. He does the work - not us.
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5520 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Brian writes:
Possibly there is. Devoutly religious people may eschew consciousness in favor of bicamerality and make decisions dictated to them by hallucinated voices. This is the stuff of Julian Jaynes' theory of The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. Jaynes regards human consciousness as an evolved successor of the bicameral mind, wherein religions find their power to control their subjects. Christianity is the best example of bicamerality I can think of. And science is the best example of consciousness I can think of. Once cured of bicamerality there's no going back...unless, as you say, psychological trauma drives a person in reverse for the comfort it may offer. In order to take Christianity seriously, you really need to have had some sort of psychological trauma, there's no other explanation for it. ”HM
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Ian, Christianity is most irrational and illogical belief system there is For the natural man it cannot be but so. There is a whole dimension of information missing and without it the dots will never join for you. You are being frank and so am I when I say you are a 2 dimensional man commenting on the world in 3D.
In order to take Christianity seriously, you really need to have had some sort of psychological trauma, there's no other explanation for it. In order to take it seriously you must have reason to do so. Finding out that it is true is a reason to take it very seriously indeed. And the only way of finding out it is true is to undergo a trauma of sorts. One term used for this is dying and being born again. Another is spiritual circumcision. Just terms. But until that happens, you have no good reason to take it seriously at all. Deep psychological trauma is as good a means as any to prise fallen, proud, independant man off his throne. There are as many means/combination of means as there are people I imagine. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
iano writes: If God of the Bible exists is there anything to prevent him from ensuring a person knows it is him and not another? The answer, clearly, is no. No one could build an evidential case stronger than he could. If he exists.... You shouldn't confuse our inability to empirically demonstrate our knowledge to you with his ability to demonstrate himself spiritually to us. A remarkable defense in that it is so generic and works with any faith, psychosis or delusion. I don't mean to be condescending, but this is same unassailable defense a child might use to defend the existence of their imaginary friend. Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, what you are saying is, it is impossible for someone to tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with Jesus/God and one they've imagined, or one that the Devil or a demon has caused to happen but makes them think is really from Jesus/God? Essentially, if someone believes that their experience is genuine, it is, right? Well, does that mean that any spiritual experience that anyone, anywhere has ever that they felt was genuine, really was?
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.1 |
I don't mean to be condescending, but this is same unassailable defense a child might use to defend the existence of their imaginary friend. That's not condescending. That's accurate. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
So, what you are saying is, it is impossible for someone to tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with Jesus/God and one they've imagined, or one that the Devil or a demon has caused to happen but makes them think is really from Jesus/God? I didn't say that. I said that it was inappropriate to shift the onus of a persons telling onto the person. I said that nothing could stop God letting a person know it was him. The ability of the person "to tell" lies in Gods ability to convince them over any pretenders ability to convince them of something else. As always I think that some of your issue (wrt me saying "I know God exists") lies in your assumption that "knowing something" means it is necessarily the case. Let's face it Schraf, this could be some alien kids playstation game and all that both you and I "know" could be in fact nowt at all. We simply assume otherwise. You and me both. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: That's just your opinion, though. There's no particular reason to believe this, other than you need it to be the case in order to explain away the problem I've presented to you. And besides, you're the one claiming that you've had a genuine experience. You've also claimed that lots of others have, too.
quote: So you claim, arbitrarily. I gather that God isn't exactly all-powerful, then?
quote: Sure. But so what? That's amusing to think about for a minute or two, but it doesn't really mean anything. Emprircism seems to work pretty well for increasing useful, practical knowledge here in the Matrix; much better than any religion seems to have. All you've done is sidestep the issue and written a bunch of words that don't mean anything, as is your usual MO. Just answer the question: Is any spiritual experience that anyone, anywhere has ever that they felt was genuine, really was? According to you, the way that people are convinced is through God convincing them, right? Also, do you think it is impossible for someone to imagine that they have had a real spiritual experience? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The ability of the person "to tell" lies in Gods ability to convince them over any pretenders ability to convince them of something else. So something convinced someone. How does the person discriminate between being convinced by God or convinced by some other critter or just plain delusion? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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