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Author Topic:   Lack of Defining Features of Intelligent Design
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3939 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 16 of 41 (430465)
10-25-2007 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by bertvan
10-25-2007 3:17 PM


Re: ID is consistent with, but does not require theism
There is an abolute lack of evidence that:
That living organisms participate in the design their own evolution
during growth and development....
Therefore any belief that the above is true can only be described by belief in the absence of evidence. That is called:
faith
-noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
That is what makes ID a theology. The only way to support it is though faith due to the entire lack of and lack of intent to produce evidence by its advocates.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by bertvan, posted 10-25-2007 3:17 PM bertvan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by bertvan, posted 10-25-2007 4:55 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3939 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 19 of 41 (430478)
10-25-2007 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by bertvan
10-25-2007 4:55 PM


Re: ID is consistent with, but does not require theism
What is the evidence that ID permits, but does not require a belief in theism?
I am not aware of ANY evidence for ID whatsoever after many years looking for it and asking its advocates. That is sort of the point right.
Me. I an a religious agnostic who does not believe in a personal god. Yet I do not believe evolution is the result of "natural selection" acting upon a series of genetic accidents.
Then this is simply a further indication that what you believe is not founded upon the evidence. Quite simply, you are completely and utterly destroying your original claim that ID is not a religion.
You may not acknowledge evidence that rational intent exists as an aspect of nature, but other people observe organisms and internal organs responding intelligently and purposefully and regard those observations as evidence of the reality of purposeful intent.
It is not that I don't acknowledge it, the issue is that such evidence simply does not exist. If it did exist, I would acknowledge it.
For starters, define purposeful intent, define a metric on how we can measure purposeful intent, and explain how to apply that metric to an internal organ so that all of us skeptics can see very clearly the evidence that organs express purposeful intent as compared to some other unintelligent object such as a rock.
Doing so will put you lightyears ahead of any so-called ID advocate.
Usually I'm content to leave science to the scientists. However so long as materialists denounce anyone questioning materialism as "an ignorant creationist", I'll feel obligated to protest.
I have not called you an "ignorant creationist". You simply are advocating a faith-based belief by definition. When you communicate something that you call a "belief" that is not based on the evidence or is contray to the evidence then that is called "faith". Plain and simple. This simple fact is not controversial in my mind. It is simply a description of what you have communicated to the readers of this forum thus far.
I do not denouce people who question materialism. I would not mind taking part in a discussion about materialism. Unfortunatly for you that is not what you are bringing to the table. So far the only thing you have done is reject known reality as religion and proclaim the superiority of un-evidenced ideas which have a well documented geneology to fundamentalist Christian ideology. What they heck does any of what you have said so far have to do with materialism or the acceptance/rejection thereof?

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by bertvan, posted 10-25-2007 4:55 PM bertvan has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3939 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 21 of 41 (430519)
10-25-2007 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by bertvan
10-25-2007 7:06 PM


Re: free will can't be measured
Subjective judgments include the option of being wrong, but they also offer the opportunity to respond creatively in emergencies. Intelligent decisions can only be measured or predicted statistically. They are immaterial and don’t take up space. I’m confident of my own freewill, but I also know it can’t be measured. The judgment as to whether living organisms resemble mindless, mechanical collections of matter or whether they respond and interact intelligently is such a subjective judgment.
So you are basically admitting that the conclusions of intelligent design are completely and utterly subjectively derived. How is that supposed to be compelling?
You claim to be non-religious but yet are also dismissing objectivity and evidenced based reasoning. That only puts you in a no-mans land of beliefs where literally you have less than no credibility or persuasion.
The religious types, at the very least, can claim divine revelation. You don't even have such a meager and fragile foundation.
If the belief that life is intelligently organized is a religious belief, so is the belief that no intelligence is involved in living processes. Neither can be proved to everyone’s satisfaction.
Actually, yes it can. Evolution is overwhelmingly supported by the evidence. Therefore the choice to accept it as the proper model to explain the origin of the diversity of life is most certainly NOT subjective. In fact it is literally the opposite.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by bertvan, posted 10-25-2007 7:06 PM bertvan has not replied

  
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