Good Scientists Gone Bad -- Dr. Watson and Dr. Pauling

This thread went adrift from square one, and that's because the opening post didn't contain any statement of position, just excerpts.This thread isn't really about whether racial differences are real. It also isn't about whether megadoses of vitamin C have any positive effect.This thread is more about something that hasn't been discussed yet, which is what can cause an accomplished scientist to become enamored of a wacky idea for which evidence is lacking.Certainly part of the discussion involves the evidence for things like racial differences in intelligence and the efficacy of megadoses of vitamin C, but the central question really involves what causes some scientists to take positions far beyond what the available evidence can justify, sometimes to the extent of ruining reputations (Pauling and Watson) and even careers (Wallace and Hoyle).

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

In order to establish a causal relationship between "race" and IQ, first one must define "race". So I don't think it's topic drift so much as a terribly long discussion about a definition.And I think we have shown there is no such thing as "race" in Homo sapiens. Great thanks to Quetzal for his help!Now that we've demolished the idea of "race" in Homo sapiens, there is no need to discuss a causal relationship between "race" and IQ, as it is a moot point.I don't know if Dr. Watson's rep will be destroyed by this nonsense. He is certainly being given a sharp rap on the knuckles (talks cancelled, appointments suspended).What that means in the long run, I haven't any idea.The question of "why" is certainly an interesting one, one I can't even begin to answer.I suspect that in the case of Dr. Watson, given his previous statements on not only race, but women, that he is a just set in his ways and seemingly unable to examine evidence contrary to his position objectively.

I wonder whether it isn't the very same thing that makes them "great", whether, in fact, it's their bloody mindedness and refusal to accept generally accepted ideas that means they push the boundaries. They just got lucky, unlike the majority of people like that who didn't. But you don't get to be repeatedly lucky.

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This thread is more about something that hasn't been discussed yet, which is what can cause an accomplished scientist to become enamored of a wacky idea for which evidence is lacking.

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The Cornell Daily Sun reposted a wire report out of Cambridge Mass which included,

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"He(Watson) has gotten increasily eccentric over the last 10 to 15 years," Losick told The Crimson. "It seems like he enjoys to shock people, but he went way too far this time."

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I could notice that James D. was a little off, a few years back when interviewed on TV he stated that if biology had Gate's $, humanity would solve pretty much all diseases in a short period of time.I suspect that the Lewontins' of the world are having a little more influence than the Watsons' and post70s molecular biologists, who thought they had already gain said (my Grandad told me about this academic dispute in the early 70s) more significance since the 60s than seems to be revealed today. James may think this is ideological (and thus) *not* something even possesing a dialectic and thus he may have started to "shock" people instead. For me personally this move by Watson and Dawkins' on a god "delusion" appear somewhat similar. Maybe that is just me though.At the end of the wire article was the paragraph,

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Biodun Jeyifo, an African and African American studies proffesor at Harvard, said Friday that he was not surprised by Watson's comments, but added that the public should forgive Watson if hisapology is genuine

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James D. Watson apparently apologized last Thursday during the same time that Cold Spring Harbor Lab announced it was suspendig him as chancellor "pending further review".Edited by Brad McFall, : and

I'd say they fell victim to their upbringing and common sense.I, too, have fallen into this pithole. Been trying to get out of it for a while now.Basically, I tend to notice that there are more blacks and latinos working in mcdonalds than there are white. I also tend to notice that in retail stores the white ones seem to be a lot more helpful than the black ones.From the common sense perspective, I notice that the west dominated by whites tend to be more prosperous than the rest of the world. My common sense tells me that Africans are obviously inferior intellectually because despite all the international aids they still have not managed to improve their "hellhole". Even China is increasing their standard of living even though not too long ago they were pretty much at the poverty level of many African nations.I could go on and on, but the reality is my other self, the more educated one, have to eventually point out to this self that the west is more properous than the rest of the world because for centuries we have literally enslaved and exploited the rest of the world. We've stolen their natural resources for centuries and now we are still stealing their natural resources by using the profits we made in past stealings to buy their natural resources today. We have forced the rest of the world to accept our currency and adopt our economic model. And in our trail of conquest and destruction, we left behind governments that are too corrupt to actually care about their own people. These are the same governments that would rather their people starve to death than actually distribute foreign aids to the people who need them most. You could say that we have installed the perfect capitalist governments in these regions that used to be our subject territories. These governments care much for wealth and little for human rights.Trust me, racism is a very powerful force in our lives. Those who are caught in it will do and say anything to justify it. I used to try to justify why I always have negative attitude toward black people. But in the end, I just have to accept that it's nothing more than the racist in me talking.

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Disclaimer:

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Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

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He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

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Have you dealt with black employees?

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Yes.Have you dealt with rich white young male employees still in college with trust funds who are only working to pay for beer?Edited by nator, : No reason given.

It seems to me that most people jump on the "race" word instead of attibuting differences among groups of people due to culture, instead. It seems that skin color itself is not that big of an indicator of intelligence difference (of course, EYE color is a different matter ! ).However, it is clear that Africa, for whatever reason, does not have an advanced and compartively successful cultural group as western cultural groups. To a lesser extent the same could be said of most Central and South American countries, and many Islamic countries.And, cultures evolve, of course. The early American culture is much different from today's (from self reliance to socialistic).I am not familiar with Dr Watson's material that compares African peoples with the rest of the world (or whatever comparison he studied). If the material shows a difference, then he was just being politically incorrect, and that trumps free speech. Instead of rational dialogue debating an issue, he must resign (according to the PC mob).

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'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

From CNN... Biden ‘stumbles’ over education question – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com BlogsOf course, he's liberal, so he does not have to resign. People may even listen to the rest of his statements and agree with him. But if he was a conservative, the PC mob would demand resignation.

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'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

Dr. Watson said that IQ is genetically determined by "race".Are you suggesting that culture determines IQ? Dr. Watson did not conduct any IQ studies.I would imagine Dr. Watson read The Bell Curve or something very much like it and chose to buy the premise of a "race" and IQ causal link despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.His "black employees" comment is particularly telling in this regard. There is no evidence that "race" determines IQ.Had you taken the time to read this thread, you would know that "race" cannot be defined in biological terms.Because "race" cannot be defined in biological terms, it cannot be linked to a biological mechanism (heredity).Even if one were to (for the sake of argument) skip the question of "race", then one is stuck trying to define IQ.IQ is a hotly debated topic. Most reputable scientists have serious doubts about the validity of "IQ". Please take the time to read Guns, Germs, and Steel. There is a big difference between the quirks of geography and fate that allowed Eurasians to conquer others and some fairytale inherent Eurasian "cultural superiority".Your specious "culture" argument is just a backdoor attempt to slander entire groups of people without looking like a racist SOB. (See also: Houston, Tejas Mexican Colony)

Since you're asking, I would say no.Censure, yes. Resignation, no.btw. You might want to get your facts straight before mouthing off. Dr. Watson has gotten a slap on the wrist. A cancelled talk. A suspension.No one has forced him to resign.

Watson RetiresThe reasons are not supplied but is it just a co-incidence?

Well, I'll be dogged.Somehow my bloggers (Orac, Ed Brayton, Pharyngula) neglected to mention this!Looks like Watson "chose" to step down.

I recently listened to the course Geog 10 World Regions, Peoples, and States and a major portion of the course discusses this book. I also happened to watch the documentary featuring Jared Diamond about the book.( PBS ) Both are quite interesting and I hope to get to his book shortly while some of what I learned is fresh.Though the course does get quite critical about the book the professor is quite clear that it does have a place in understanding wealth and even intelligence based on geography and not based upon race.I believe that your suggestion to read the book is well placed. Though I haven't read it yet - I know it has the effect of showing racist attitudes to have no grounds.

IMO, Guns, Germs, and Steel is, if not the best history book I have ever read, definitely a contender.

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

Thank you crash.I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, look at Bjork.What is she?? Half-Japanese? Part Inuit? No she is Icelandic. Of course, I do not know her personally, but she says she is Icelandic in ancestry and the country is pretty damn isolated so...And one of my exes is from Poland. She had olive toned skin, black hair, dark brown eyes and an "aquiline" nose reminiscent of Native Americans, but as far back as she was able to trace her family (a few hundred years according to family bibles) she was Polish (1930's immigrants) with no recent Native American ancestry.This kind of talk reminds me of a Stormfront page I viewed which claimed that evidence of people with red hair in China, Egypt and other "successful" "non-white" countries suggested that whites brought "civilization" to those countries enabling them to be successful. Exactly.Lazy, dumb white employees are just lazy and dumb, but lazy, dumb black employees are indicative of their entire "race."Astounding.

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea