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Author Topic:   Wholley Jesus!
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 10 of 76 (429350)
10-19-2007 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
10-18-2007 8:28 PM


dameeva writes:
The cause was his righteousness. The effect was some loved and followed him whilst others feared and hated him. The consequence was cruxifiction.
I don't see why you make a distinction between effect and consequences.
Jesus' righteousness caused love in some and hate in others. The love caused emulation, the hate caused crucifixion. Both the emulation and the crucifixion caused spreading of the word, which caused more love and more hate.
Cause and effect or cause and consquences. What's the difference?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pelican, posted 10-18-2007 8:28 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by pelican, posted 10-19-2007 10:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 15 of 76 (429454)
10-19-2007 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by pelican
10-19-2007 10:30 PM


Re: The whole truth
dameeva writes:
quote:
I don't see why you make a distinction between effect and consequences.
I honestly don't see why you don't!
Looking at your reply to Jon:
quote:
Cause : my post
Effect : your reply
Consequence : dialogue between strangers
Jon's reply is a consequence of your post just as much as it's an effect of your post. It looks like you're needlessly (mis)using three terms for two concepts.
I believe living a righteous life as percieved through Jesus causes immense suffering needlessly. If Jesus is to be held in high regard then we better know the full implications of follow my leader.
I'm having difficulty digesting your word salad. What is a righteous life "as perceived through Jesus"? Who is suffering needlessly? What are the "full implications"? Are implications different from effects and/or consequences?
Edited by Ringo, : Clarified "reply" --> "post".

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by pelican, posted 10-19-2007 10:30 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by pelican, posted 10-20-2007 1:07 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 17 of 76 (429468)
10-20-2007 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by pelican
10-20-2007 1:07 AM


Re: The whole truth
dameeva writes:
O.K you could say that Jon's reply was a consequence, but it must have been a consequence of the effect my post had.
From Dictionary.com:
quote:
con·se·quence
1. the effect, result, or outcome of something occurring earlier: The accident was the consequence of reckless driving.
2. an act or instance of following something as an effect, result, or outcome.
3. the conclusion reached by a line of reasoning; inference.
4. importance or significance: a matter of no consequence.
5. importance in rank or position; distinction: a man of great consequence in art.
and:
quote:
ef·fect
1. something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence: Exposure to the sun had the effect of toughening his skin.
2. power to produce results; efficacy; force; validity; influence: His protest had no effect.
3. the state of being effective or operative; operation or execution; accomplishment or fulfillment: to bring a plan into effect.
4. a mental or emotional impression produced, as by a painting or a speech.
5. meaning or sense; purpose or intention: She disapproved of the proposal and wrote to that effect.
6. the making of a desired impression: We had the feeling that the big, expensive car was only for effect.
7. an illusory phenomenon: a three-dimensional effect.
8. a real phenomenon (usually named for its discoverer): the Doppler effect.
The two words are used to define each other. If you see a fundamental difference between the two words, please tell us what it is.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by pelican, posted 10-20-2007 1:07 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by pelican, posted 10-20-2007 11:32 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 19 of 76 (429485)
10-20-2007 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by pelican
10-20-2007 11:32 AM


Re: The whole truth
dameeva writes:
They really are intertwined.
That's what I'm saying. If you're going to discuss them as different concepts, you're going to have to spell out what differences you mean.
You're also going to have to spell out what that difference means with respect to "suffering for our beliefs" (or whatever it is that the topic is trying to address).

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by pelican, posted 10-20-2007 11:32 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by pelican, posted 10-20-2007 8:53 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 25 of 76 (429594)
10-20-2007 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by pelican
10-20-2007 8:53 PM


Re: The whole truth
dameeva writes:
Phats description in post 21 may answer your question. Action -reaction-aftermath.
By standing on my head and squinting just right, I had almost figured out that that was what you were getting at. I'm glad Phat confirmed it, since he's more up on jabberwocky than I am.
It is a process and you cannot separate them as different concepts...
I thought I was the one who said that.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by pelican, posted 10-20-2007 8:53 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by pelican, posted 10-21-2007 8:09 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 29 of 76 (429687)
10-21-2007 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by pelican
10-21-2007 8:09 AM


Re: The whole truth
dameeva writes:
There is an easier way. It's called thinking outside the box or maybe it's not so easy for some.
Since when does "thinking outside the box" mean making up your own terminology and not telling anybody what it is? If you want to discuss the topic, you have to communicate. That means that the words have to be inside the box.
Can you make your point in plain English?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by pelican, posted 10-21-2007 8:09 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by pelican, posted 10-21-2007 7:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 76 (429795)
10-21-2007 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by pelican
10-21-2007 7:02 PM


Re: The whole truth
dameeva writes:
Ringo it's all been in plain English. Just because you do not understand it doesn't make me stupid.
I didn't say you were stupid. I said you're not communicating successfully.
I did my homework on lateral thinking. Apparently some chap named Edward de Bono coined the phrase. Lateral thinking sees from a different perspective. It seeks problems and solutions from different angles. This is what I am attempting to do here.
Better read de Bono again. Lateral thinking is about getting a different perspective and then linking those new ideas to "the box". It's not about wandering around aimlessly in box-free territory.
However, from personal experience I do know how hard it is to change an ingrained perspective without a physical experience to support it.
"Ingrained perspectives" are not the problem here. We can't communicate about any perspective unless you can be clearer on what your terminology means.
Can you bear with me and try to accept that, for the sake of this argument, the premise of cause, effect and consequence are present...
Certainly not. I've been asking you what you think the distinction is between effect and consequence (and I think Jon is asking the same thing). I don't see how we can just accept that "it is" before you tell us what it is.
... and by applying it to the knowledge we have of the Jesus story may uncover previously unaware information?
I think we'd be much more likely to "uncover previously unaware information" without your mangled notions of "effect" and "consequences".
How about giving us an example of some "previously unaware information" about Jesus?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by pelican, posted 10-21-2007 7:02 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 12:44 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 37 of 76 (430023)
10-23-2007 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by pelican
10-23-2007 12:44 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:
He had the power to save himself but he wanted humanity to 'choose' to follow him. What an idiot! Who would choose to be persecuted and then cruxified to death?
The choice goes all the way back to free will in the Garden of Eden. Jesus didn't want people to "follow Him" in the sense that professing Christians say it - by braying about their beliefs. He wanted them to follow the instructions that they had already been given, instructions that were for their own good, not His.
It appears he was under some illusion that his suffering and death would save humanity from sin.
A lot of professing Christians are under that illusion. I see no reason to think that He was. If He was the Son of God, He certainly ought to have known that nobody needs to be saved "from sin".

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 12:44 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 10:44 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 76 (430089)
10-23-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by pelican
10-23-2007 10:44 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:
The main justifcation of following Jesus is the promise of heaven after death or an afterlife.
That's definitely in-the-box thinking.
Suppose there is no heaven and no afterlife. They haven't been proven as existing and if this is the case, life would be pointless and especially so if it is one of oppression.
The "point" of life is much more meaningful if we create it ourselves than if we have it spoonfed to us by some flying spook. Oppression is caused by conflict between different people's points. Jesus' point was to get different people's points to live together in peace, without oppressing each other.
If this is the case and if there is a god, then why have we been created?
If there is no God, we haven't been "created" and external purpose is irrelevant.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 10:44 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 7:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 43 of 76 (430213)
10-23-2007 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by pelican
10-23-2007 7:38 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:
... by teaching the 'right' way and the interpretation of the 'right' way and the following of the 'right' way....
Not The Right Way™. A better way.
(For somebody who wants to think outside the box, you sure seem steeped in fundy dogma.)
The beliefs derived from 'Jesus' actually create those willing to be oppressed.
It's not "willing to be opressed" so much as willing to try a different response to oppression.
Jesus said:
quote:
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
As Gandhi explained it, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Jesus' alternative doesn't invite oppression. It discourages the endless spiral of retribution and encourages a more constructive approach.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by pelican, posted 10-23-2007 7:38 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by pelican, posted 10-24-2007 6:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 76 (430351)
10-24-2007 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by pelican
10-24-2007 6:51 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:
quote:
Jesus' alternative doesn't invite oppression. It discourages the endless spiral of retribution and encourages a more constructive approach.
Does it?
Yes.
Suppose you knock my eye out. If I knock yours out in return, that leaves both of us less capable of taking care of our families, etc. There's also a chance that you'll retaliate and I'll counter-retaliate and so on until one (or both) of us is crippled or dead.
On the other hand, if I turn the other cheek, there's at least a chance that you'll stop your attack. Turning the other cheek is an attempt to minimize the damage.
The question you should be asking is: How many cheeks do I have? Do you turn the other cheek once? Or is there always an other cheek?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by pelican, posted 10-24-2007 6:51 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by pelican, posted 10-24-2007 11:00 PM ringo has replied
 Message 48 by pelican, posted 10-25-2007 8:43 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 47 of 76 (430395)
10-25-2007 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by pelican
10-24-2007 11:00 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
Heinrik writes:
Hoping the aggressor will become passive is naieve.
That's kinda the point.
quote:
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
It's thinking outside the box, like a child who isn't box-trained yet.
Our biological response is to lash out at "evil" - it's the "fight" part of fight-or-flee. How's that workin' for ya? Has it eliminated violence? How often does violence even reduce violence?
The question you should be asking is 'what do we do about the evil and the aggressor?' The way you see it doesn't address the problem at source.
It isn't supposed to meet the problem head on. It's supposed to outflank the problem.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by pelican, posted 10-24-2007 11:00 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by pelican, posted 10-29-2007 9:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 49 of 76 (430448)
10-25-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by pelican
10-25-2007 8:43 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:
What about the war on Iraq? [...] What about the terrorists?
You make my point. Violence begets violence.
What about the 7oo,ooo rapes in the United States every year?
Turning the other cheek doesn't mean you lie there and let yourself be raped. It means you don't retaliate afterwards. Will retaliation prevent rape?
It may have a chance of discouraging a very small number who are basically non-violent to begin with....
Almost everybody is non-violent to begin with.
... most physical abuse begins in anger and the concept of turning the other cheek is of no use whatsoever.
Turning the other cheek prevents the escalation of anger. If I hit you back, you're likely to become angrier and hit me back - and then I'm likely to become angrier and hit you back and then you're likely to become angrier and hit me back and then I'm likely to become angrier and hit you back....

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by pelican, posted 10-25-2007 8:43 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by pelican, posted 10-26-2007 6:46 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 76 (430615)
10-26-2007 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by pelican
10-26-2007 6:46 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:
Your theories (or the bible's) do not end violence, do not bring peace, do not bring unity and haven't for thousands of years.
Who said they would?
Jesus' teachings weren't intended to be some kind of cure-all WeltPolitik. They were intended for individuals, to make individual lives better.
I agree that no-one is born violent but some do become violent or develop a need for power...
And you don't think being surrounded by non-violent people would make them less likely to develop that need?
... of these only a very small number would respond in a non-violent way if the other cheek was offered.
Again, it's not about them responding in a non-violent way. It's about you minimizing the escalation of violence by not provoking them further.
Isn't a third alternative worth the search?
The alternatives on the table are turning the other cheek and not turning the other cheek. Feel free to suggest something else.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by pelican, posted 10-26-2007 6:46 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by pelican, posted 10-29-2007 11:03 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 58 of 76 (431131)
10-29-2007 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by pelican
10-29-2007 11:03 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:
quote:
The alternatives on the table are turning the other cheek and not turning the other cheek. Feel free to suggest something else.
Exposure?
Don't waste posts with one-word answers. If you have something to say, say it.
Edited by Ringo, : Fixed quote.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by pelican, posted 10-29-2007 11:03 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by pelican, posted 10-29-2007 9:33 PM ringo has replied

  
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