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Author Topic:   Wholley Jesus!
pelican
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 46 of 76 (430380)
10-24-2007 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ringo
10-24-2007 7:10 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
[That ye resist not EVIL: but WHOSOEVER shall smite thee on thy right cheek...]

The question you should be asking is 'what do we do about the evil and the aggressor?' The way you see it doesn't address the problem at source.

Hoping the aggressor will become passive is naieve. The aggressor(whosoever)is already abusing power by using physical violence. What caused the violence? If we don't resist evil, what do we do?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 10-24-2007 7:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 10-25-2007 12:10 AM pelican has responded
 Message 57 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-29-2007 12:21 PM pelican has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 47 of 76 (430395)
10-25-2007 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by pelican
10-24-2007 11:00 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
Heinrik writes:

Hoping the aggressor will become passive is naieve.

That's kinda the point. :)

quote:
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

It's thinking outside the box, like a child who isn't box-trained yet.

Our biological response is to lash out at "evil" - it's the "fight" part of fight-or-flee. How's that workin' for ya? Has it eliminated violence? How often does violence even reduce violence?

The question you should be asking is 'what do we do about the evil and the aggressor?' The way you see it doesn't address the problem at source.

It isn't supposed to meet the problem head on. It's supposed to outflank the problem.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by pelican, posted 10-24-2007 11:00 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by pelican, posted 10-29-2007 9:20 PM ringo has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 48 of 76 (430420)
10-25-2007 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by ringo
10-24-2007 7:10 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
[Suppose you knock my eye out. If I knock yours out in return, that leaves both of us less capable of taking care of our families, etc. There's also a chance that you'll retaliate and I'll counter-retaliate and so on until one (or both) of us is crippled or dead.]

And you think this isn't happening? What about the war on Iraq? What about the 7oo,ooo rapes in the United States every year? What about the terrorists?

[On the other hand, if I turn the other cheek, there's at least a chance that you'll stop your attack. Turning the other cheek is an attempt to minimize the damage.]

Is the chance worth taking? What if I have a knife and stab your cheek? Or does the non-violent concept only apply to slaps? It may be an attempt to minimise damage, but does it? It may have a chance of discouraging a very small number who are basically non-violent to begin with, but most physical abuse begins in anger and the concept of turning the other cheek is of no use whatsoever.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 10-24-2007 7:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 10-25-2007 2:41 PM pelican has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 49 of 76 (430448)
10-25-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by pelican
10-25-2007 8:43 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:

What about the war on Iraq? [...] What about the terrorists?

You make my point. Violence begets violence.

What about the 7oo,ooo rapes in the United States every year?

Turning the other cheek doesn't mean you lie there and let yourself be raped. It means you don't retaliate afterwards. Will retaliation prevent rape?

It may have a chance of discouraging a very small number who are basically non-violent to begin with....

Almost everybody is non-violent to begin with.

... most physical abuse begins in anger and the concept of turning the other cheek is of no use whatsoever.

Turning the other cheek prevents the escalation of anger. If I hit you back, you're likely to become angrier and hit me back - and then I'm likely to become angrier and hit you back and then you're likely to become angrier and hit me back and then I'm likely to become angrier and hit you back....


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by pelican, posted 10-25-2007 8:43 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by pelican, posted 10-26-2007 6:46 AM ringo has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 50 of 76 (430591)
10-26-2007 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
10-25-2007 2:41 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
I haven't once suggested retaliation as a solution. I absolutely agree with non-violence but passivity doesn't work either.
I agree that no-one is born violent but some do become violent or develop a need for power, of these only a very small number would respond in a non-violent way if the other cheek was offered.
Be realistic. Your theories (or the bible's) do not end violence, do not bring peace, do not bring unity and haven't for thousands of years. Isn't a third alternative worth the search?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 10-25-2007 2:41 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 10-26-2007 10:41 AM pelican has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 51 of 76 (430615)
10-26-2007 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by pelican
10-26-2007 6:46 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:

Your theories (or the bible's) do not end violence, do not bring peace, do not bring unity and haven't for thousands of years.

Who said they would?

Jesus' teachings weren't intended to be some kind of cure-all WeltPolitik. They were intended for individuals, to make individual lives better.

I agree that no-one is born violent but some do become violent or develop a need for power...

And you don't think being surrounded by non-violent people would make them less likely to develop that need?

... of these only a very small number would respond in a non-violent way if the other cheek was offered.

Again, it's not about them responding in a non-violent way. It's about you minimizing the escalation of violence by not provoking them further.

Isn't a third alternative worth the search?

The alternatives on the table are turning the other cheek and not turning the other cheek. Feel free to suggest something else.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by pelican, posted 10-26-2007 6:46 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by pelican, posted 10-29-2007 11:03 AM ringo has responded

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 3251 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 52 of 76 (430633)
10-26-2007 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
10-18-2007 8:28 PM


In reality, his life as a mortal consisted of three parts. The cause was his righteousness. The effect was some loved and followed him whilst others feared and hated him. The consequence was cruxifiction.

Ok two points need immediate correction. (I’m assuming you are basing this on a probable reconstruction of the historical Jesus, and on the Gospel accounts).

First. It’s clear that Jesus (who I think probably existed, say, 80% likely – no need to get into that now). DID NOT get crucified because he was righteous, nor because he told people to be righteous. The Romans didn’t care about that. They cared about Jewish uprisings started by people who led military rebellions. The Romans crucified Jesus because they heard people say that he said he was the king of the Jews. This was a political killing to keep the peace – why would the Romans care if a Jew told other Jews to be righteous, or what a Jewish preacher’s private belief system was? The answer – they wouldn’t.

Secondly – the words of Jesus that the Gospel accounts give us (regardless of how accurate they are) do not portray Jesus as a complete pacifist. He tells his followers to hate their families, he goes nuts and trashes the temple (in two independent accounts), and then there is this from Luke 22:

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."
The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.

Have a fun day-

Equinox


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pelican, posted 10-18-2007 8:28 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by pelican, posted 10-28-2007 7:50 PM Equinox has not yet responded

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 3251 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 53 of 76 (430634)
10-26-2007 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Doddy
10-23-2007 1:36 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
Goddy wrote:

Nothing Jesus said could justify killing non-believers.

Well, “could” is pretty open to dispute. There is no question that people have repeatedly used Jesus’ words to justify killing non-believers. There are too many cases to list, both large and small. Perhaps the first big one is worth mentioning. Augustine, one of the most revered fathers of the church by both Catholics and Protestants explicitly used Jesus’ words in Luke 14 (the banquet parable), esp. 14:23 as justification to use death threats and torture to force people to become Catholics. This is in many of his writings, such as Letter 185, 11, and sees the gospel account of “making people come in” as saying that we should force people to come into the Catholic church. This was the basis for this same terrorist approach for over 1000 years, where heretics and pagans would be told to convert or they will be killed, or where heretics and pagans would be tortured to convert or die in the process.

You may dispute that Augustine and others made a reasonable conclusion based on Luke 14, but being that people have for centuries used Jesus’ words (often citing specific verses) to justify killing non-believers makes it hard to make that claim you made above.

In friendliness-

-Equinox


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Doddy, posted 10-23-2007 1:36 AM Doddy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Doddy, posted 10-28-2007 5:13 AM Equinox has not yet responded

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 4019 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 54 of 76 (430895)
10-28-2007 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Equinox
10-26-2007 12:58 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
Equinox writes:

You may dispute that Augustine and others made a reasonable conclusion based on Luke 14, but being that people have for centuries used Jesus’ words (often citing specific verses) to justify killing non-believers makes it hard to make that claim you made above.


Yeah, I guess it does.

But it's not just a bad conclusion, it's flat out contrary to what Jesus said. In Luke 9:1-5, we read of Jesus instructing his disciples to go and preach. What does he say to do when the people don't convert?

"And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them."

Absolutely nothing about threatening people or torturing people to make them more receptive. Jesus just says to leave them alone.

But I guess you do have a point. People could twist the phone directory to suit their needs if they wanted to.


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This is what we are up against. There are thousands around the world more being (home-)schooled in the same way. But the internet is far reaching! Teach evolution by joining the Evolution Education Wiki today!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Equinox, posted 10-26-2007 12:58 PM Equinox has not yet responded

    
pelican
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 55 of 76 (431004)
10-28-2007 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Equinox
10-26-2007 12:39 PM


Wholley Jesus
Equinox [Secondly – the words of Jesus that the Gospel accounts give us (regardless of how accurate they are) do not portray Jesus as a complete pacifist. He tells his followers to hate their families, he goes nuts and trashes the temple (in two independent accounts), and then there is this from Luke 22:He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."
The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.]

Exactly, thanks. I peceive him as a nutter also. Maybe the Romans perceived him in the same way but dangerous too.

My concept for this topic was to show that Jesus caused his own demise and caused\created both positive and negative effects and still is. I think if we examine the negative effects and see Jesus' life story from a different perspective, it would turn the teachings upside down.

In other words we are not seeing the whole picture. We only have half. His followers chose to see the positive half whereas the enemies chose to see the negative half. Why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Equinox, posted 10-26-2007 12:39 PM Equinox has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 56 of 76 (431111)
10-29-2007 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
10-26-2007 10:41 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
[The alternatives on the table are turning the other cheek and not turning the other cheek. Feel free to suggest something else.]

Exposure?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 10-26-2007 10:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 10-29-2007 2:29 PM pelican has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 57 of 76 (431114)
10-29-2007 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by pelican
10-24-2007 11:00 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
quote:
That ye resist not EVIL: but WHOSOEVER shall smite thee on thy right cheek

The question you should be asking is 'what do we do about the evil and the aggressor?' The way you see it doesn't address the problem at source.

Hoping the aggressor will become passive is naieve. The aggressor(whosoever)is already abusing power by using physical violence. What caused the violence? If we don't resist evil, what do we do?

Theologically, this is where my wife and I disagree considerably. She is of the opinion that Jesus advocated total pacifism, whereas I believe Jesus taught pacifism when possible, insomuch that we make patience, restraint and forgiveness a focal point.

As we all know, violence begets violence. As the Scriptures say, being kind to someone who is cruel to you is like "heaping burning coals on their head." I understand the passage to mean that by treating them the way they should treat you, their sensibilities and their conscience will ache over such an affront.

That in no way means that we are to be completely passive either, because, as you said, it will not stop the problem of evil. In fact, unless you check the ill behavior, it will continue unabated.

Total pacifism, in my estimation, is the same as allowing the unleashing of total bloodshed.

Its a strange dichotomy, but I think most people have a general idea about what is acceptable and what is not. Getting in to a fist fight over machismo is not the same thing as stopping someone from raping a little girl by any reasonable means.

As far as it relates to Jesus, I found a website concerning the pacifivity of Jesus that closely models my own beliefs concerning it.


“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by pelican, posted 10-24-2007 11:00 PM pelican has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 58 of 76 (431131)
10-29-2007 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by pelican
10-29-2007 11:03 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
dameeva writes:

quote:
The alternatives on the table are turning the other cheek and not turning the other cheek. Feel free to suggest something else.

Exposure?

Don't waste posts with one-word answers. If you have something to say, say it.

Edited by Ringo, : Fixed quote.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by pelican, posted 10-29-2007 11:03 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by pelican, posted 10-29-2007 9:33 PM ringo has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 59 of 76 (431201)
10-29-2007 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
10-25-2007 12:10 AM


Re: The other side of Jesus
It's thinking outside the box, like a child who isn't box-trained yet.

Do you mean like a child pees it's pants whilst being potty trained?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 10-25-2007 12:10 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 10-29-2007 9:44 PM pelican has responded
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-30-2007 7:49 PM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 60 of 76 (431203)
10-29-2007 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
10-29-2007 2:29 PM


Re: The other side of Jesus
ringo [Don't waste posts with one-word answers. If you have something to say, say it.]

It is the other way around, Ringo I've wasted many words in these posts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 10-29-2007 2:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 10-29-2007 9:48 PM pelican has responded

  
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