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Author Topic:   Explanation for the inexplicable.
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 10 (422407)
09-17-2007 12:25 AM


In Proof for God's Non-existance? pbee made the following statements

pbee writes:

Joshua's long day; (plausible)
Reversing Shadows; (plausible)

And why would we conclude the earth stopped rotating? I could think of all sorts of scientifically plausible methods to extend daylight without altering the movement of the planets.

Since it was the witching hour for the thread {and also off topic}
I thought I would ask for an elaboration on this statement from pbee since I am fascinated that the term plausible could ever be applied to the stories from Joshua.

So pbee {or anyone else caring to participate} I implore you to present your arguement concerning this issue to allow me a chance to understand your POV.

I suppose this could go in Miscellaneous Topics in Creation/Evolution.

Edited by sidelined, : added quotes


It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.

Charles Darwin


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 09-17-2007 7:35 AM sidelined has responded
 Message 5 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 09-17-2007 5:00 PM sidelined has not yet responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1911
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 10 (422451)
09-17-2007 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
09-17-2007 12:25 AM


Narrowing and reframing this topic
Are you specifically asking pbee (and other creationists) why they think that stopping a planets rotation is plausible, or are you speaking of Joshua in general? Try and reword your opening post without addressing pbee specifically. Perhaps you could title it Scientific Plausibility of alleged Acts of God.(Your current title is OK too! :p )

Edited by AdminPhat, :


This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 10 (422521)
09-17-2007 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
09-17-2007 7:35 AM


Re: Narrowing and reframing this topic
Phat

I am asking pbee in particular but anyone else who may care to participate from the creationists side may also have at it.


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 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 09-17-2007 7:35 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1911
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 4 of 10 (422523)
09-17-2007 3:19 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 509
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 5 of 10 (422539)
09-17-2007 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
09-17-2007 12:25 AM


Modern (or ancient?) science explains the bible.
Quantum Mechanics! QM (in particular, the uncertainty principle) tells us that the position and momentum of the sun are not precisely defined, but are described by a probability distribution. This probability distribution includes the possibility that the sun could appear to to stand still for about a day. The probability of this happening is extremely small (less even than the probability of 300 amino acids randomly coming together to form a functional protein). But, what the hell, it's only happened once. We note also that the bible says that the sun stayed its course for about a day, indicating the uncertainty involved in the time determination as well. Several bible skeptic posters in this forum have frequently stated that the authors of the bible were ignorant of what is now known about the workings of the universe and its laws. They apparently had a detailed understanding of Quantum Mechanics 3000 years before its recent rediscovery.
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 10 (430610)
10-26-2007 10:22 AM


Joshua is waiting for a defense team here
Bump to begin discussion if anyone dares.

Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Elhardt, posted 10-28-2007 6:11 AM sidelined has responded

  
Elhardt
Junior Member (Idle past 3402 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 10-27-2007


Message 7 of 10 (430898)
10-28-2007 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by sidelined
10-26-2007 10:22 AM


Re: Joshua is waiting for a defense team here
I dare. My first day here and as usual I see people who think they can decide what happened or what didn't happen in the past just in their heads and not actually hunt for information. Obviously if something so major as to see the sun stop in the sky do to the earth's rotation changing happened, then we should expect to see other cultures also mention the event. See, this is very simple logic. And do we see that? Yes. It's called extra-biblical corroboration. Here's some of them.

1) On the opposite side of the planet a Maya codex mentions the time the sun didn't come up and the length of the morning was extended by about 20 hours. The people thought the world was ending so they started sacrificing, then the sun finally came up.

2) Another culture mentions a time when the sun rose to the horizon, and then sat there a long time and didn't move.

And following are some more from different cultures and you can see how a real event triggers legends and stories to start popping up all over the world (so take note all you who keep denying a global flood). Here are three more that I remember off hand.

3) A woman is trying to dry something (without looking it up I forget exactly what), but there were not enough hours in the day, so somebody throws a lasso around the sun and ties it to a tree to stop the sun in its place. After whatever it is has dried, the sun promises it will move more slowly through the sky and so somebody cuts the rope and the sun continues on its course.

4) A rope is stretched across the sky and the sun gets snagged in it and can't move. The sun starts choking and one person after another tries to cut the rope to free the sun but none are successful. Finally a rat climbs up the rope and chews through the rope freeing the sun to continue on its way. ** Note how a rat is involved. It is believed that probably has to do with a plague that was associated with the sun stopping where there was an infestation of rats, so it was included in the story.

5) A dog crossed the path of the sun causing the sun to baulk. After the dog crossed, the sun continued on its course.

--- About the reversal of the sun's direction

1) In an ancient Chinese astronomical text it was mentioned that the sun moved backwards 3 houses of (I can't remember what term or measurement was used without looking it up, but it would probably equal about the 10 degrees mentioned in the bible)

2) Another legend mentions the sun going down behind the horizon, then popping back up in a backward movement, then it continued on its original course.

You can see from these how an observed event can come down to us in the form of legends or myths. But there is a real event behind these. And you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Obviously Joshua can't command the sun to stop anymore than you can throw a rope around the sun and tie it to a tree. But the common part to all of these is the sun stopped in the sky for a while and then continued on its course.

So when there are over 500 legends of a flood from every inhabited continent on earth and virtually every culture, then you know damn well there was some kind of flood that affected the whole earth and all people on it. There isn't a single other believable theory to explain all those legends, not to mention a huge boatload of physical evidence showing evidence of a massive flood on all continents including massive animal extinctions in the process. I'll probably start a topic later on and dump a bunch of that evidence here so I can stop listening to two ignorant groups of people keep arguing back and forth.

Oh, and let me point out the hypocrisy. Just as cultures all over the world mention the last world being destroyed by a flood, many also mention the world before that was destroyed when it was covered with ice. How ridiculous that we talk about the ice age and are taught it in school. Using the logic of all these deniers we shouldn't believe these myths, and if the ancient people say the earth was covered in ice we shouldn't believe them anymore than when they say it was covered in water. What the hell, not all cultures say it was covered in ice, so that proves there was no ice age (I'm taking the idiotic logic I just read one of the flood threads).


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 Message 6 by sidelined, posted 10-26-2007 10:22 AM sidelined has responded

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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 36 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 8 of 10 (430899)
10-28-2007 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AnswersInGenitals
09-17-2007 5:00 PM


Re: Modern (or ancient?) science explains the bible.
AnswersInGenitals writes:

quote:
Quantum Mechanics! QM (in particular, the uncertainty principle) tells us that the position and momentum of the sun are not precisely defined, but are described by a probability distribution.

Indeed, but essentially irrelevant as the sun does not revolve around the earth but instead the earth revolves around the sun.

Instead, there would have to be not only a continual shifting of particles in the Terran frame of reference but also a complete loss of momentum with regard to those particles that would then immediately resume once the effect stopped.

Where did the momentum go? And how did it come back?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 09-17-2007 5:00 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 36 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 9 of 10 (430900)
10-28-2007 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Elhardt
10-28-2007 6:11 AM


Re: Joshua is waiting for a defense team here
Elhardt writes:

quote:
On the opposite side of the planet...

...the sun wouldn't be up as it would be night time. The earth is round, after all. Therefore, any story about an extended daylight cannot be related to Joshua.

quote:
Another culture mentions a time when the sun rose to the horizon, and then sat there a long time and didn't move.

Well, since you provide absolutely no reference, I shall respond in kind:

No, it doesn't.

quote:
And following are some more from different cultures and you can see how a real event triggers legends and stories to start popping up all over the world (so take note all you who keep denying a global flood).

First, to deal with your aside: You only find flood myths in civilizations near flood plains. If you go to cultures where it doesn't flood, you find no flood myths. Surely these would be the most likely to have a flood myth since it would be such an unusual event.

That said, we have the same problem: You provide absolutely no references. Therefore, I shall respond in kind:

No, they don't say that.

quote:
In an ancient Chinese astronomical text it was mentioned that the sun moved backwards 3 houses of (I can't remember what term or measurement was used without looking it up, but it would probably equal about the 10 degrees mentioned in the bible)

No, it doesn't.

quote:
Another legend mentions the sun going down behind the horizon, then popping back up in a backward movement, then it continued on its original course.

No, it doesn't.

quote:
But the common part to all of these is the sun stopped in the sky for a while and then continued on its course.

A physical impossibility. Does the word "momentum" mean anything to you?

quote:
So when there are over 500 legends of a flood from every inhabited continent on earth and virtually every culture

But that's just it: There aren't. There are a couple of flood myths (the one in Genesis is a rip off from the story of Ut-Napishtim) and you never find them outside of cultures that live in flood plains. You'd think that those would be the ones that had them since it would be such an unusual event.

quote:
How ridiculous that we talk about the ice age and are taught it in school.

We have evidence of an ice age. We have no evidence of a flood. In fact, it is physically impossible to flood the earth. So long as there is dry land, you cannot use the water that exists on the earth to flood it. That's the entire point behind dry land: There isn't enough water to cover it.

But there's plenty of evidence of an ice age. The glaciers scoured out the valleys and left the rocks behind.

quote:
What the hell, not all cultures say it was covered in ice, so that proves there was no ice age (I'm taking the idiotic logic I just read one of the flood threads).

Incorrect. You're taking the idiot logic of strawman. Specifically:

Nobody says the world was covered in ice. An ice age does not mean the world was covered in ice. Instead, it simply means that the arctic regions were much further south.

See, this is why many people think that the origin of the Ut-Napishtim (and hence the Genesis flood) is from a local flood.

That's why cultures that don't live in flood plains don't have flood myths: There was never a flood to mythologize.

Edited by Rrhain, : Fixed a bad quote tag.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Elhardt, posted 10-28-2007 6:11 AM Elhardt has not yet responded

    
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 10 (430922)
10-28-2007 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Elhardt
10-28-2007 6:11 AM


Re: Joshua is waiting for a defense team here
Elhardt

Obviously if something so major as to see the sun stop in the sky do to the earth's rotation changing happened, then we should expect to see other cultures also mention the event

Since Rrhain has taken care of the bulk of your points I will go to the above statement to explain that the sun stopping movement in the sky translates {in our modern knowledge of things} into the earth stopping its rotation. I had a post from many years ago wherein I gave a breakdown of the effects such an event would have.

sidlined writes:

Now it appears Tom is under some illusion of what is entailed in the physics behind a god stopping the earth and reversing the rotation.
Besides the fact that no other nation recorded this event,nor,I might add did they notice that the sun now came up on the horizon it used to set on.{Remember,the earth is never stated as being returned to its original spin.}

The earth rotates at 1000 mph at the equator. It rotates at about,say, 450 mph at the level of the Middle East.Now if you stop the earth all the people and animals and anything to varying degrees according to their composition and mass will still be rotating at 450 mph eastward.Mountains would move less as the shearing forces began to acquire sufficient energy to break and melt rock.

So basicly you would be sitting in your fields tending your sheep when you are suddenly find the ground beneath you grinding the flesh off your bones from the friction as you are now moving across it at 450 mph.The pain would be short lived as you quickly slam into a nearby hillside as it is turning into slag from the heat produced by inertial forces.Let us nor forget the wind at earths surface would now be experiencing similar disaster as it now moves at similar velocity along with you.The waters of the ocean are fluid so they would now be under some weird shifts since the gravitational forces are unbalaned towards the moon along with the surge as the oceans continued to move at the same speed.

It would be general chaos on a planetary scale.


"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Elhardt, posted 10-28-2007 6:11 AM Elhardt has not yet responded

  
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