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Author
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Topic: Good Scientists Gone Bad -- Dr. Watson and Dr. Pauling
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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3447 days) Posts: 622 From: NY,NY Joined: 06-16-2006
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Message 151 of 161 (430584)
10-26-2007 3:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 62 by crashfrog
10-20-2007 12:38 AM
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Re: Race is a biologically useless category
Look, you must be wrong. On every race-identifying form I've ever seen - including the US Census - "caucasian/hispanic" are the same choice. Hispanics are caucasian. I think that is more to satisfy the "Spanish" Hispanics than anything regarding "race." Indigenous Caribbean, Central and South Americans would more likely check off the "Native American" box (I don't recall seeing another option for them) unless they identified more with the "non-white Hispanic" option. Census boxes do not, however, a race make. "Hispanic" is most definitely a cultural (more specifically a linguistical) construct and not a "racial" construct. I doubt that indigenous Peruvians/Bolivians/Ecuadorians/Guatemalans/etc would approve of being lumped in with the invading Spanish racially. Many of them do not even speak Spanish even as a second language.
"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." - The Iron Heel by Jack London "Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 10-20-2007 12:38 AM | | crashfrog has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 155 by Quetzal, posted 10-26-2007 10:25 AM | | Jaderis has not replied |
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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3447 days) Posts: 622 From: NY,NY Joined: 06-16-2006
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Message 152 of 161 (430585)
10-26-2007 3:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 79 by crashfrog
10-20-2007 3:08 PM
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Re: Thanks for Agreeing With Me
You apparently missed the context. We were talking about Mexico, and while obviously a large number of black people live in Mexico, they're not highly represented (less than 1% according to a quick Google) in that population. It's fair to say that, when people talk about Mexican Hispanics, they're talking about people of caucasian or mixed-caucasian racial origin, to the extent that those words even have meaning. Or they are talking about purely indigenous Mexican people (or indigenous Mexicans who have some caucasian ancestry in their distant past), of which there are plenty. Of course, to the extent that those words even have meaning because there are several different indigenous peoples represented within the modern country of Mexico.
"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." - The Iron Heel by Jack London "Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by crashfrog, posted 10-20-2007 3:08 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3447 days) Posts: 622 From: NY,NY Joined: 06-16-2006
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Message 153 of 161 (430587)
10-26-2007 4:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 81 by Buzsaw
10-20-2007 3:15 PM
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Re: Race is a biologically useless category
The historical record appears to lend support to your position. The races, geographically have been essentially uniform throughout known history until the industrial revolution and escalation of travel etc. Throughout recorded history until the industrial revolution and the effects of westernization upon the orientals, for some reason caucasian peoples have been the more prosperous, educated, civilized, industrious, dominating, expansive and productive on the planet from whose race all of the major world empires have emerged. So, there was no orientalization of the "west" then? White people just came up with all of their "educated, civilized, etc" ideas all on their own? No great, dominating, productive empires ever existed before white people came along? I would say something along the lines of "you can't be serious" but, sadly, I know all too well that you are. Are you perhaps confusing "all the major world empires" with "all the recent major world empires? or "all the world empires that you learned about in your 1950's history books?" Talk about revisionist history...
"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." - The Iron Heel by Jack London "Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by Buzsaw, posted 10-20-2007 3:15 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3447 days) Posts: 622 From: NY,NY Joined: 06-16-2006
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Re: Juggs needs to define race...
Why would it be any less important than any other taxonomic classification? Look at something Grouper, a saltwater fish. Are there vast differences between Nassau, Goliath, Yellowfin, or Black Grouper? Not really. Yet, its very obvious that they are different. And its largely dependent upon where they are located in how these different characteristics isolate and then fix in a sub-population. Its exactly the same as humans. No, it is not exactly the same in humans. It could have been eventually if we were all genetically isolated for hundreds of thousands of years or more (theoretically), but we were not. Yes, certain alleles have been fixed in certain populations and given enough time maybe some groups would be permanently isolated from others, but that has not been the case. And in the case of intelligence, it has not been shown that an "intelligence allele" is more frequent in one "race" as opposed to another. Other (external)differences are there, no one is denying that since they are obvious, but it hasn't been shown that one "race" is superior to any other in matters of intelligence.
"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." - The Iron Heel by Jack London "Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 118 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-20-2007 11:05 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5894 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: 01-09-2002
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Message 155 of 161 (430611)
10-26-2007 10:25 AM
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Reply to: Message 151 by Jaderis
10-26-2007 3:41 AM
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Re: Race is a biologically useless category
I doubt that indigenous Peruvians/Bolivians/Ecuadorians/Guatemalans/etc would approve of being lumped in with the invading Spanish racially. Many of them do not even speak Spanish even as a second language. Absolutely true. The indigenous groups down here in the Ecuadorian Amazon do not identify themselves as "Hispanic" by any stretch. When asked, they all state they are Shuar, or Seqoya, or Cofan, or Kichwa, etc. Only the mestizo population - fairly recent immigrants to the region starting in the 1970's - might identify themselves as "Spanish".
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 151 by Jaderis, posted 10-26-2007 3:41 AM | | Jaderis has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 156 of 161 (430612)
10-26-2007 10:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 81 by Buzsaw
10-20-2007 3:15 PM
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As usual, still waiting for a response.
Buz, do you ever plan on trying to support your assertions as requested back in Message 82 or are you once again simply going to make wild ass assertions and run away from supporting them?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by Buzsaw, posted 10-20-2007 3:15 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 157 of 161 (430745)
10-27-2007 2:17 AM
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I just found a lovely site that demolishes the " Homo sapiens subspecies" argument.
Let's look at the major claim: that humans will subspeciate. I can't think of anything less likely among a species that has major gene flow between all its populations on a scale of thousands of generations. Species aren't formed by selection for differing adaptive traits within a population, but by the interruption of the gene flow that is caused by migration or invasion between populations. Take a look at human gene flow over the past 10,000 years - massive amounts of interbreeding and invasive gene flow. Not a hint of the sorts of isolation required for a mammalian species to speciate in sight. Not even the Tasmanian aborigines, who were isolated for about 10,000 years. Not even the San or M'buti. Nada. Page not found | ScienceBlogs I couldn't have said it better myself.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 158 by Fosdick, posted 10-27-2007 11:10 AM | | molbiogirl has not replied |
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5522 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: 12-11-2006
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Say wha?
mbg writes: I just found a lovely site that demolishes the " Homo sapiens subspecies" argument.
Let's look at the major claim: that humans will subspeciate. I can't think of anything less likely among a species that has major gene flow between all its populations on a scale of thousands of generations. Species aren't formed by selection for differing adaptive traits within a population, but by the interruption of the gene flow that is caused by migration or invasion between populations. Take a look at human gene flow over the past 10,000 years - massive amounts of interbreeding and invasive gene flow. Not a hint of the sorts of isolation required for a mammalian species to speciate in sight. Not even the Tasmanian aborigines, who were isolated for about 10,000 years. Not even the San or M'buti. Nada. Page not found | ScienceBlogs I couldn't have said it better myself.
Just a question of clarification: Do you mean to say that you agree with the sentence I've highlighed in orange? I'd say the author has demolished only his own credibility. ”HM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 157 by molbiogirl, posted 10-27-2007 2:17 AM | | molbiogirl has not replied |
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Admin
Director Posts: 13023 From: EvC Forum Joined: 06-14-2002 Member Rating: 1.9
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Message 159 of 161 (430778)
10-27-2007 12:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 158 by Fosdick
10-27-2007 11:10 AM
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Re: Say wha?
Please take this discussion to the just-promoted thread, One evolving species vs speciation..
| -- | Percy | | | EvC Forum Director |
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 158 by Fosdick, posted 10-27-2007 11:10 AM | | Fosdick has not replied |
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Wounded King
Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: 04-09-2003
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Message 160 of 161 (430958)
10-28-2007 2:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 158 by Fosdick
10-27-2007 11:10 AM
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Re: Say wha?
*Post moved to correct thread* TTFN, WK Edited by Wounded King, : Moved off topic post.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 158 by Fosdick, posted 10-27-2007 11:10 AM | | Fosdick has not replied |
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Wounded King
Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: 04-09-2003
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Message 161 of 161 (430960)
10-28-2007 3:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 159 by Admin
10-27-2007 12:14 PM
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Re: Say wha?
Oops sorry I'll move my reply. TTFN, WK
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by Admin, posted 10-27-2007 12:14 PM | | Admin has not replied |
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