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Author | Topic: What you want to know about Christ. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Would Christ have condoned the extermination campaign by the Israelites on the Canaanites? For example, and specifically, would Christ have condoned what the Israelites did to the people of Jerico?
Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
gen writes:
Gee, you didn't answer my question. Let me ask again. I believe Christ was with God in heaven when God told the Israelites to drive out the Canaanites. Rahab, in Jericho, was saved because she was kind to the Israelite spies who came to Jericho. Although this is before the invasion of Canaan, when Sodom was burnt to nothing God gave his people fair warning and even promised to spare the city if there were 10 good people living there. God always provides a way out for his followers. Would Christ have condoned the extermination campaign by the Israelites on the Canaanites? For example, and specifically, would Christ have condoned what the Israelites did to the people of Jerico? You promised me you would answer my questions. Now, remember that I am an atheist and you claim to speak for christianity. Please don't try to dodge or you will give me a really bad impression of christianity. By the way, it was an extermination campaign, not a "drive out" campaign. Perhaps you should read the bible again? Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Still patiently waiting for an answer to message 55
Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Phat writes:
And yet Gen blatantly dodged my question of if Jesus would have approved of what the Israelites did to the people of Jerico. The humanity of Jesus? Gen did say that Jesus was with god the father when he commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child (even those 1 and 2 year olds... I'm sure they were out raping other 1 and 2 year olds...) except for the virgin girls implying that Jesus approved of the murderous acts. Gen wants us to focus on the humanity of Jesus So, please, I still haven't forgotten your pathetic attempt to rationalize genocide. Want to talk about the humanity of Jesus? Tell Gen to stop dodging my question and address the issue directly. Would Jesus have approved of the Israelites running their swords through 1 year olds and pregnant women of the city of Jerico? Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
I'm curious about something, iano.
Suppose you walk along the sidewalk one day and a great white glowing unicorn appears in front of you. Totally amazed, you call everyone else around you to come and see the unicorn. The thing is everybody that's there insists that he sees no glowing unicorn at all. But the unicorn is right there in front of your eyes. So, you decide to prove to everyone that the thing is real and is right there in front of you. You walk up to it and tries to jump on its back. To your surprise, the creature appears to go right through you, or rather you appear to go right through it. Any attempt you make in physical contact with this creature fails because your hand would go right through it. After a while, people get bored and begin to leave. The crowd is dispersed. But the unicorn is still right there in front of you. You can still see it. It's still right there. Is this experience real or not? Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Um, ok. Does this mean that there is no such thing as insanity or psychosis?
Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
I was wondering about the same thing. He/she disappeared right after I pointed out that his/her answer to my question was a total dodge and did not really answer the question at all. If anything, he/she seemed to have implied that Jesus condones the cold blooded murder of innocent little infants and toddlers.
But I guess it is too much to ask for a straight answer from a christian these days... Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. All lovers makeMake the same mistakes Yes they do Yes, all lovers make Make the same mistakes As me and you Sugar baby love, sugar baby loveI didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. People take my adviceIf you love somebody Don't think twice. Love you baby love, sugar baby loveLove him anyway, love him everyday
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Heinrik writes:
This does not matter, though. We are discussing whether someone's experience accurately reflects reality, especially when that experience is not shared by anyone else. Maybe a person 'believes' they are hearing god or 'believes' they are seeing a unicorn. It is 'actually happening' to them and is a human experience, therefore their 'belief' of the experience is valid and we cannot tell them they are not having that experience because they are. You are making an argument that is no-brainer. If we are speaking from the point of view of the person seeing the unicorn, of course the experience is real TO HIM. That is not what we are talking about, however. We are talking about telling the difference between fantasy and reality, not whether an experience is real to a person or not. Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. All lovers makeMake the same mistakes Yes they do Yes, all lovers make Make the same mistakes As me and you Sugar baby love, sugar baby loveI didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. People take my adviceIf you love somebody Don't think twice. Love you baby love, sugar baby loveLove him anyway, love him everyday
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Heinrik writes:
That's easy. Tell her to ask god to tell her who will win the world series next year. Have her write it down on a piece of paper before showing it to anyone. Seal it up in a vault somewhere. After next year's world series, open it up and see what god told her.
This is exactly the point I am making. How can we know if for example Joyce Mayers' experiences of god accurately reflect reality? It is only what she says. How can we know if another's experiences of the unseen reflect reality or NOT?
We weigh it against the experiences of other people. Going back to my unicorn example. You are convinced that the unicorn is right there in front of you, but everyone else around you is telling you there is no unicorn. You then try to touch it but the unicorn seems to be noncorporeal so you just go straight through it. At this point, isn't it a little stupid to create a whole religion out of this one experience that noone else can experience?
We cannot see or prove many claims made of connection with another realm. Take John Edwards as another example. He claims to connect to 'the other side'. Is that logical or provable?
Trust me, I've watched (with a lot of pain) many of his shows. I have not seen ONE instance of him actually giving out any information. It's always the people that are volunteering the information. He always starts out with "they want me to recognize (insert name here)". Notice that they want him to recognize such and such person. In an audience of a hundred people, there's got to be a John sitting somewhere OR someone with an uncle name John. In fact, just give me a random common American name and I guarantee you I have a relative or friend who's got that name. You should really watch his show with more objectivity.
The point I am making is that we cannot know what is real because the claims are 'originating from the same place' and appearing within the individual in the same way, as in 'through themselves'.
Let me ask you this question. If, say, an immaterial pink unicorn is real and that only you can see it but none of the rest of us can, does it really matter if the unicorn is real or not? You are asking us to treat every quack and every nutcase as messiah or prophet.
If one hears god telling them to spread the gospel and another doesn't, which is true?
Again, we experiment. Ever heard of Nancy Lieder? She claims to be in direct telepathic connection with an all-knowing alien race called the Zeta. I listened to her interview one time on a radio show. The radio host asked her to give him the answer to a big random number multiplied by another big random number. You know what her response was? Her response was about 5 minutes long rant about how everyone is doomed for not believing her and all of that. Going back to the spreading the gospel thing. Whoever claims to be a messenger of god, ask him something that would at least indicate a higher intelligence at work. Doesn't it strike you odd that none of the modern prophets have ever answered directly to any question that would clue us in on the higher intelligence at the other end?
As they all have the same thing in common whether it's the projection of a unicorn or the voice of god, whatever it may be is coming from within the individual. They could not speak of it otherwise.
I completely believe you now. God just appeared to me and me alone. He told me that if you post one more post on this forum you will go straight to hell after you die. Take it or leave it.
So, how do we tell the difference between fantasy and reality?
For the millionth time, you experiment. You weigh the experience against the experiences of other, more objective people. Remember not to respond at all. It's best that you don't come back to this forum. I am convinced that my experience with god was real. He really did tell me that you would go to hell for eternity if you post another message on this forum. Have a nice life Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. All lovers makeMake the same mistakes Yes they do Yes, all lovers make Make the same mistakes As me and you Sugar baby love, sugar baby loveI didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. People take my adviceIf you love somebody Don't think twice. Love you baby love, sugar baby loveLove him anyway, love him everyday
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Heinrik writes:
May I remind you that it's the christians that have always dehumanize other people. It's always us atheists that try to tell christians that gay people are people, too. So please, don't you even start bringing up human right issues with me. I've been suffering high blood pressure in my young age from talking to bigoted christians.
Who are the ones doing the judging? Probably those who haven't had any experiences or don't admit to them. I believe if we are to have a peaceful world then we have to take matters into our our hands and STOP de-humanizing human beings and this is a good place to start. Again the operative words are 'the experience' and 'the experience of others'. All of them are experiences, experienced by human beings and therefore, are all valid as human experiences. There is no need to go any further than the experience itself.
I think this is where we disagree the most. Not all experiences are equal. I'm a physicist. I write a lot of programs. I've worked in research labs for years. I have a friend that is an artist. Between my word and hers on certain artwork, whose word do you trust more? Between my word and hers on a physical problem, whose word do you trust more? There is a member here called phat (he recently changed his name to something else). I had a conversation with him in chat one time about his supposed experience with god. He said that one time as he was waking up he felt a very strong, almost overwhelming, presence. He concluded right away that he was in the presence of god. I began to ask him questions about his experience. Did he smell anything? No, he said. Did he see anything? No, he said. Did he feel anything? No, he said. Did he hear anything? No, he said. Could he describe the experience to me? No, he said. Well, what could he tell me about the experience? Nothing, he said. How did he know it was god? Don't know, he said. Ok... did he seek out a second opinion? Nope, he said. Could he tell me anything at all that would give me a clue about what the experience was like? Nothing, he said. So, again, how did he know it was god? It must have been god, he said. Huh? The point is I don't know what he experienced and I certainly don't know if it was god or the devil that bestowed itself onto him. However, if it was me, I'd try to record everything down. If I didn't have any device to record at the time, I'd try to write what I felt down. Why? I am aware that there is such a thing called false memory syndrome. I am also aware of certain sleep disorders, including the most likely candidate for phat's experience which is sleep paralysis. In other words, coming straight to the conclusion that an experience is god does absolutely nothing to help the rest of us understand the experience. Who do you trust more on reporting an experience like that? Phat, who didn't know what was going on immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was god he felt or me who would have done everything to record the moment and avoid as much as possible the imminent false memories that will pop up in my mind later on? Not every human experience is equal. And certainly, not every report of human experience is equal. If I wanted to hear about all the kookoo experiences out there, I would have consulted Pat Robertson long time ago. He prophecized tsunamis and brimstone and fire raining down on the US happening years ago. I'm still waiting for that tsunami hitting the east coast, which was suppose to happen a few years back. Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. All lovers makeMake the same mistakes Yes they do Yes, all lovers make Make the same mistakes As me and you Sugar baby love, sugar baby loveI didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. People take my adviceIf you love somebody Don't think twice. Love you baby love, sugar baby loveLove him anyway, love him everyday
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Heinrik writes:
Actually, I belong to an even smaller minority group than you think. My group is called the united brotherhood of straight-people-who-are-damn-tired-of-seeing-gay-people-treated-like-second-class-citizens. So you know what it's like to belong to a minority group? Do you know what it's like being in a minority group who experience a different reality than the one you live in? Again, I am not saying there is something objectively wrong about being able to experience a so-called different reality. What I am saying is that the best way we can interpret reality is not through mystics but through experimentations and skepticism. But the really main and important point is not every experience and story about an experience is equal and they shouldn't be treated as equal.
This is obviously an emotional issue for you and I'm truly sorry you have been de-humanized in others' perceptions. It really is terrible but aren't you doing the same by labelling them 'bigoted christians'?
How so? First of all, bigoted christians ARE the majority, not minority. This is why almost every state in the union has some kind of law against gay marriage and any civil union for gay people that remotely resemble marriage. This is why somdomy laws were finally declared unconstitutional in the 21st century. This is why gay people still can't serve in the army and be open about themselves. This is why over 10,000 (ten thousand) service men and women have been discharged since we invaded Iraq because they were gay (during a time when the military is badly in need of soldiers). Being called "bigoted christian" is a very small price to pay for what the christians have been doing to dehumanize other people for many years now. Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. All lovers makeMake the same mistakes Yes they do Yes, all lovers make Make the same mistakes As me and you Sugar baby love, sugar baby loveI didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. People take my adviceIf you love somebody Don't think twice. Love you baby love, sugar baby loveLove him anyway, love him everyday
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Heinrik writes:
Dehumanize? It's a fact that they are bigots.
Also,is your group not stooping to a lower level by de-humanizing those you name 'bigots? How much understanding have you of these people living on the other side of your reality? Do you think your reality is the only one and is the correct one and you will label anyone who disagrees?
Quite a lot of understanding, actually. I grew up christian fundamentalist. You know those christians that are convinced god is always talking to them? I was one of those. I prayed everyday and I heard/felt god everyday. So, yes, I do understand how people perceive that other reality.
I think that is an equal experience, don't you?
Nope. Experience and story-telling of experience is not always equal. Most people are in the habit of falling prey to false memory syndrome. Not too long ago, sleep paralysis was still thought to be made by a witch or demon sitting on you. In fact, have you any idea how often I hear people telling a story and knowing they've added in a few extra details here and there while leaving out some important details to create a mystery? I think everything I wanted to say have been said. Conclusion: I don't trust any one's assessment of any phenomenon (not even my own) as much as the concensus of professionals in the said fields. Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. All lovers makeMake the same mistakes Yes they do Yes, all lovers make Make the same mistakes As me and you Sugar baby love, sugar baby loveI didn't mean to make you blue Sugar baby love, sugar baby love I didn't mean to hurt you. People take my adviceIf you love somebody Don't think twice. Love you baby love, sugar baby loveLove him anyway, love him everyday
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Heinrik writes:
I still don't understand what you are saying here. Perhaps you could be a little less cryptic? Are you saying that a person having a prejudice against someone else because of his sexual orientation is not bigotry? Are you saying that only racists are bigots but homophobes are not? Please be less cryptic. C'mon Taz. Bigot: a person who is intolerant,esp.regarding religion or race. You have to be what you want to see.
Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Heinrik writes:
I don't know where you got this idea that I am intolerant of those who don't agree with me. I don't necessarily respect your opinion, but I let you have it. TAZ, I am referring directly to you personally from the information you have given. You are being intolerant, as defined in 'bigotry', towards those who do not agree with you. In the past, I have many times voiced my opinion that Fred Phelps ought to be able to protest at people's funerals (let them be gay, soldier, whatever) given that he and his clan don't violate people's private properties. But as I have also stated in the past, a human right is a human right. As a straight man, I love the fact that I have been fortunate enough to have found a wonderful woman who was willing to marry me. I absolutely love the fact that at social events all I have to do is say "this is my wife" and there is no doubt in anyone's mind that she is the most important person in my life. I absolutely love the fact that in a hospital all I have to say is "that's my wife" and we are treated as one socially and legally. I absolutely love the fact that if anything was ever to happen to me I can rest easy knowing that whatever I left behind will belong to my wife. I absolutely love the fact that if we decide to have children, we can either have biological children or adopt as many children as we want. I absolutely love the fact that I can hold my wife's hand in public without being told to "cover up" (referencing what happened to a gay couple on a plane a few months ago). In other words, I absolutely love all of these rights that are mine. The right to the pursuit of happiness is the most cherished of all rights in a free country. Straights, gays, etc. we all have dreams. We all have goals in life. We all want to be happy. The only difference between myself and a gay man is I am attracted to women and he is attracted to men. Why on Earth must we make him forfeit his right to happiness just because what he decides to do in his own bedroom is a little different than what the rest of us want to do in our own bedrooms? So, you can say that I am intolerant of people who go out of their way to violate other people's freedom. If that's what you think is bigotry, you got me there.
It is not a case of right or wrong. It is a case of 'who you, personally, are being' and 'what you, personally, are doing'. In fighting your case to be right, are you are becoming a 'bigot?'.
By your logic, should I stop being intolerant of the gay haters and fully accept their view? Nemesis_juggernaut would have a field day I'm sure. I have said this many times in the past. A human right is a human right. It's not negotiable. It's not up for debate. It simply is. Human right issues is one area I absolutely refuse to give any ground. Everyone ought to have the right to pursuit of happiness.
There is a saying that comes to mind : Let him who is without sin throw the first stone.
Sorry, I'm not christian anymore. I would match my set of atheistic morals against christian morals any day.
There is a background story to every human being. We are all a product of our whole life experiences and each one is unique. If you desire change then the change begins with you. If you wish to see tolerance amongst others then you first must be tolerant. You have to be what you want to see.
But I have been trying to tell you that I consider myself very tolerant of others, especially those I don't agree with. It's only when they go out of their way to take away other people's rights that I am against. If Fred Phelps wants to protest at my funeral or my parents' funerals, I won't be happy about it but I will let him given he won't step on my property. He can have his opinion about people like me and I can have my opinion about people like him. But asking me to accept what he wants to do to gay people is just too much to ask.
It's sort of putting your money where your mouth is. You cannot get away with preaching 'do as I say and not as I do'. We have many leaders doing just that. Are you being a shepherd or a sheep?
Well, neither really. Yes, my money is where my mouth is. For the first time in many years, I will not be voting at all this upcoming primary. Why? I've been trying to watch every debate I could catch, both republican and democrat. I've come to believe that if I vote I will be voting for a bunch of morons. If given a chance, I will tell them to their faces to call whatever that's under their roof a "civil union". Anyway, by your definition, I am really a bigot for not tolerating christians' attempts to violate human rights. When christianity have something better to put on the table, I will reconsider my position. In the mean time, the few christians that claim to be tolerant can try to fix things within their own christian communities. When push comes to shove, I'm the least of their worries. Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!
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