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Author | Topic: What you want to know about Christ. | |||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
So, how can I tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with Jesus/God and one I've imagined, or one that the Devil or a demon has caused to happen but makes me think is really from Jesus/God?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Are you saying that someone couldn't have an imaginary experience that has all the characteristics you listed?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
gen, I know you are dealing with a lot of questions right now, but I was hoping to get your answer to my Message #155 when you get a chance.
Thanks in advance. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
gen doesn't seem to be inclined to answer my question, so maybe you wil, iano.
So, how can I tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with Jesus/God and one I've imagined, or one that the Devil or a demon has caused to happen but makes me think is really from Jesus/God?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, what you are saying is, it is impossible for someone to tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with Jesus/God and one they've imagined, or one that the Devil or a demon has caused to happen but makes them think is really from Jesus/God? Essentially, if someone believes that their experience is genuine, it is, right? Well, does that mean that any spiritual experience that anyone, anywhere has ever that they felt was genuine, really was?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: That's just your opinion, though. There's no particular reason to believe this, other than you need it to be the case in order to explain away the problem I've presented to you. And besides, you're the one claiming that you've had a genuine experience. You've also claimed that lots of others have, too.
quote: So you claim, arbitrarily. I gather that God isn't exactly all-powerful, then?
quote: Sure. But so what? That's amusing to think about for a minute or two, but it doesn't really mean anything. Emprircism seems to work pretty well for increasing useful, practical knowledge here in the Matrix; much better than any religion seems to have. All you've done is sidestep the issue and written a bunch of words that don't mean anything, as is your usual MO. Just answer the question: Is any spiritual experience that anyone, anywhere has ever that they felt was genuine, really was? According to you, the way that people are convinced is through God convincing them, right? Also, do you think it is impossible for someone to imagine that they have had a real spiritual experience? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Is any spiritual experience that anyone, anywhere has ever that they felt was genuine, really was? According to you, the way that people are convinced is through God convincing them, right?
Also, do you think it is impossible for someone to imagine that they have had a real spiritual experience?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Also, do you think it is impossible for someone to imagine that they have had a real spiritual experience? quote: So, is there any way to tell the difference between a genuine spiritual experience with God, a real one that you are led to believe is from god but is from the Devil or a demon, and an imagined one? The difference between "real" and "imagined" is like the difference between dreaming you are flying and actually flying when you are awake such that you can demonstrate this ability to others in some manner. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, there's no external way to verify if the experience was a real one or not, right?
quote: We might, if we wanted to descend into meaningless sophistry in order to avoid answering a very simple question. So, we won't, if that's OK with you. Given that you accept that it is possible for someone to imagine a 100% false spiritual experience with God, then how can anyone say that they've had a real one, like you just did? What is the way to tell the difference between imaginary and real? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
So, there's no external way to verify if the experience was a real one or not, right? quote: Wrong, unless you just want to use the post-modern cop-out of "we could all be the mad imaginings of a super-intelligent lifeform.", or "We could all be in the Matrix." That's not the road we are going to go down right now. The road we ARE going to go down, my obsfucating, sophist, make-up-any-bullshit-scenario-to-avoid-the-logical-implications-of-a-question, say-nothing-in-1000-words-or-more friend, is the road where you answer my simple question in a simple way. Let's imagine that we don't actually live in the Matrix, or aren't the product of the mind of an insane super intelligent space alien. Let us operate in what you would probably consider the disappointingly mundane universe ruled by natural law. In this world that we both live in (at least I do), we happily do have a way to reasonably determine if an experience was a real one, and those methods can also suggest the level of certainly one should hold for any given experience. Are you suggesting that there is no way to verify that, say, I was at work this morning, or that I have several siblings, or that I currently reside in the US? Are you saying that thare is no such thing as knowledge, since you seem to be saying that nobody can ever know anything at all?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Nope, that's not what I'm saying. I asked how anyone could tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with God, a real spiritual experience with a demon or the Devil who have fooled one into thinking the experience was with God, and a false spiritual experience one has only imagined. So far, you've not provided a clear naswer. It pretty much boiles down to the contradictory answers of "nobody can know anything, except me and thae other people who believe like I do. We know."
quote: You are the only one playing games with words, iano. I'm simply asking the same question, over and over again, and you continue to shovel great piles of (defensive) steaming cow dung into the place where your honest answer should be.
quote: Ha! Jar is a Christian and he asked you the same question I did. Twice. I don't think you are making much sense to him, either.
quote: So, I won't understand your avoidant word salad until I believe in the same religion as you? Sorry, but any religion that makes its followers as defensive and willfully obfuscatory as yours obviously does is doomed to drive me far, far away from it. I like a straightforward approach, in contrast to what you've shown me. You wouldn't know an honest debate tactic if it appeared to you on a cloud.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You wanna bet? Wasn't the area ruled by the Romans, of orgy and erotic art fame?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, when someone says that God told them to kill their children, is that a valid experience that shouldn't be discounted? We shouldn't prosecute or consider this person insane, since they said that God Himself gave the order?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Wait, what? How is a human claiming to have seen a unicorn not a human experience?
quote: But that contradicts what you said, doesn't it? "Every human experience is a valid experience", right? So, why should we stop the person from carrying out God's will?
quote: It was just a typical example. Replace "God" with "aliens" if you want to, it makes no difference.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But every hiuman experience is a valid human experience, isn't it? Who are we to tell the person who hears God's voice that they shouldn't believe it because we think it isn't really God? How do you know that a person hearing God's voice is in "serious trouble"? All human experience is valid; none should be discounted.
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