Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What you want to know about Christ.
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 155 of 300 (430060)
10-23-2007 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by gen
10-23-2007 7:56 AM


Re: Doesn't He already know me?
So, how can I tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with Jesus/God and one I've imagined, or one that the Devil or a demon has caused to happen but makes me think is really from Jesus/God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by gen, posted 10-23-2007 7:56 AM gen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 10-23-2007 10:45 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 158 of 300 (430084)
10-23-2007 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
10-23-2007 10:45 AM


Re: Doesn't He already know me?
Are you saying that someone couldn't have an imaginary experience that has all the characteristics you listed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 10-23-2007 10:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 10-23-2007 11:33 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 176 of 300 (430410)
10-25-2007 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by gen
10-24-2007 7:56 AM


Re: A Gentle Reminder
gen, I know you are dealing with a lot of questions right now, but I was hoping to get your answer to my Message #155 when you get a chance.
Thanks in advance.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by gen, posted 10-24-2007 7:56 AM gen has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 185 of 300 (430759)
10-27-2007 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by iano
10-26-2007 6:05 PM


I'll try you
gen doesn't seem to be inclined to answer my question, so maybe you wil, iano.
So, how can I tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with Jesus/God and one I've imagined, or one that the Devil or a demon has caused to happen but makes me think is really from Jesus/God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by iano, posted 10-26-2007 6:05 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by iano, posted 10-27-2007 11:21 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 191 of 300 (430816)
10-27-2007 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by iano
10-27-2007 11:21 AM


Re: I'll try you
quote:
If God of the Bible exists is there anything to prevent him from ensuring a person knows it is him and not another? The answer, clearly, is no. No one could build an evidential case stronger than he could. If he exists.
You place the onus on me to be able to discern when it is clearly upon God to demonstrate himself. And it turns out he has - to me and many others. You shouldn't confuse our inability to empirically demonstrate our knowledgge to you with his ability to demonstrate himself spiritually to us.
Man-dependant-upon-God is the fulcrum of salvation. In this matter of God revealing himself as in so many others. He does the work - not us.
So, what you are saying is, it is impossible for someone to tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with Jesus/God and one they've imagined, or one that the Devil or a demon has caused to happen but makes them think is really from Jesus/God?
Essentially, if someone believes that their experience is genuine, it is, right?
Well, does that mean that any spiritual experience that anyone, anywhere has ever that they felt was genuine, really was?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by iano, posted 10-27-2007 11:21 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by iano, posted 10-27-2007 9:43 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 194 of 300 (430903)
10-28-2007 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by iano
10-27-2007 9:43 PM


Re: I'll try you
quote:
I didn't say that. I said that it was inappropriate to shift the onus of a persons telling onto the person. I said that nothing could stop God letting a person know it was him.
That's just your opinion, though.
There's no particular reason to believe this, other than you need it to be the case in order to explain away the problem I've presented to you.
And besides, you're the one claiming that you've had a genuine experience. You've also claimed that lots of others have, too.
quote:
The ability of the person "to tell" lies in Gods ability to convince them over any pretenders ability to convince them of something else.
So you claim, arbitrarily.
I gather that God isn't exactly all-powerful, then?
quote:
As always I think that some of your issue (wrt me saying "I know God exists") lies in your assumption that "knowing something" means it is necessarily the case. Let's face it Schraf, this could be some alien kids playstation game and all that both you and I "know" could be in fact nowt at all. We simply assume otherwise. You and me both.
Sure. But so what? That's amusing to think about for a minute or two, but it doesn't really mean anything.
Emprircism seems to work pretty well for increasing useful, practical knowledge here in the Matrix; much better than any religion seems to have.
All you've done is sidestep the issue and written a bunch of words that don't mean anything, as is your usual MO.
Just answer the question:
Is any spiritual experience that anyone, anywhere has ever that they felt was genuine, really was? According to you, the way that people are convinced is through God convincing them, right?
Also, do you think it is impossible for someone to imagine that they have had a real spiritual experience?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by iano, posted 10-27-2007 9:43 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by iano, posted 10-29-2007 8:55 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 203 of 300 (431185)
10-29-2007 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by iano
10-29-2007 8:55 AM


Re: I'll try you
Is any spiritual experience that anyone, anywhere has ever that they felt was genuine, really was? According to you, the way that people are convinced is through God convincing them, right?
Also, do you think it is impossible for someone to imagine that they have had a real spiritual experience?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by iano, posted 10-29-2007 8:55 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by iano, posted 10-29-2007 8:17 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 209 of 300 (431254)
10-30-2007 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by iano
10-29-2007 8:17 PM


Re: I'll try you
Also, do you think it is impossible for someone to imagine that they have had a real spiritual experience?
quote:
Not in the least. I think people imagine “real” spiritual experiences all the time. I suspect that people dabbling in such things write-off real spiritual experiences as imagination too. In supposing all this to be the case I am using what I know to be real (w.r.t. my perception of reality) as a baseline against which to compare others spiritual experiences.
So, is there any way to tell the difference between a genuine spiritual experience with God, a real one that you are led to believe is from god but is from the Devil or a demon, and an imagined one?
The difference between "real" and "imagined" is like the difference between dreaming you are flying and actually flying when you are awake such that you can demonstrate this ability to others in some manner.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by iano, posted 10-29-2007 8:17 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 2:53 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 227 of 300 (431381)
10-30-2007 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by iano
10-30-2007 2:53 PM


Re: I'll try you
quote:
The best way to tell is to ask yourself whether the quality of your knowing is at the max possible. For example: are you as sure of that fact as you are of the fact of your own existance. If you are then it is as real as can be. For you.
So, there's no external way to verify if the experience was a real one or not, right?
quote:
We might define real as being what a person perceives reality to be.
We might, if we wanted to descend into meaningless sophistry in order to avoid answering a very simple question.
So, we won't, if that's OK with you.
Given that you accept that it is possible for someone to imagine a 100% false spiritual experience with God, then how can anyone say that they've had a real one, like you just did?
What is the way to tell the difference between imaginary and real?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 2:53 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 8:21 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 230 of 300 (431395)
10-30-2007 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by iano
10-30-2007 8:21 PM


Re: I'll try you
So, there's no external way to verify if the experience was a real one or not, right?
quote:
Right. And that goes for any experience (empirically demonstrable or otherwise).
Wrong, unless you just want to use the post-modern cop-out of "we could all be the mad imaginings of a super-intelligent lifeform.", or "We could all be in the Matrix."
That's not the road we are going to go down right now.
The road we ARE going to go down, my obsfucating, sophist, make-up-any-bullshit-scenario-to-avoid-the-logical-implications-of-a-question, say-nothing-in-1000-words-or-more friend, is the road where you answer my simple question in a simple way.
Let's imagine that we don't actually live in the Matrix, or aren't the product of the mind of an insane super intelligent space alien.
Let us operate in what you would probably consider the disappointingly mundane universe ruled by natural law.
In this world that we both live in (at least I do), we happily do have a way to reasonably determine if an experience was a real one, and those methods can also suggest the level of certainly one should hold for any given experience.
Are you suggesting that there is no way to verify that, say, I was at work this morning, or that I have several siblings, or that I currently reside in the US?
Are you saying that thare is no such thing as knowledge, since you seem to be saying that nobody can ever know anything at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 8:21 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 9:30 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 233 of 300 (431402)
10-30-2007 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by iano
10-30-2007 9:16 PM


Re: I'll try you
quote:
"can you empirically demonstrate your spiritual experience because if not then it is not (according to my philosophy) real"
Nope, that's not what I'm saying.
I asked how anyone could tell the difference between a real spiritual experience with God, a real spiritual experience with a demon or the Devil who have fooled one into thinking the experience was with God, and a false spiritual experience one has only imagined.
So far, you've not provided a clear naswer. It pretty much boiles down to the contradictory answers of "nobody can know anything, except me and thae other people who believe like I do. We know."
quote:
It's more of a game of words LQ. Don't take it too much to heart.
You are the only one playing games with words, iano. I'm simply asking the same question, over and over again, and you continue to shovel great piles of (defensive) steaming cow dung into the place where your honest answer should be.
quote:
Out-of-the-closet-seekers won't find so much obfuscation from me.
Ha! Jar is a Christian and he asked you the same question I did.
Twice.
I don't think you are making much sense to him, either.
quote:
In-the-closet-seekers like (potentially) Schraf, (although she doesn't realise she is (potentially) one) are a different matter.
So, I won't understand your avoidant word salad until I believe in the same religion as you?
Sorry, but any religion that makes its followers as defensive and willfully obfuscatory as yours obviously does is doomed to drive me far, far away from it.
I like a straightforward approach, in contrast to what you've shown me. You wouldn't know an honest debate tactic if it appeared to you on a cloud.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 9:16 PM iano has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 236 of 300 (431488)
10-31-2007 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Phat
10-31-2007 8:18 AM


Re: Speculation about Jesus impulses
quote:
They never had porn in those days
You wanna bet?
Wasn't the area ruled by the Romans, of orgy and erotic art fame?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 10-31-2007 8:18 AM Phat has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 253 of 300 (431885)
11-02-2007 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by pelican
11-02-2007 6:34 PM


Re: human experience
quote:
Every human experience is valid. None should be discounted.
So, when someone says that God told them to kill their children, is that a valid experience that shouldn't be discounted?
We shouldn't prosecute or consider this person insane, since they said that God Himself gave the order?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by pelican, posted 11-02-2007 6:34 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by pelican, posted 11-02-2007 6:53 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 257 of 300 (431903)
11-02-2007 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by pelican
11-02-2007 6:53 PM


Re: human experience
quote:
Hang on, you are jumping the gun. I meant the 'experience' is valid. That is, the 'experience' of seeing a unicorn is valid. It cannot not be a human experience.
Wait, what? How is a human claiming to have seen a unicorn not a human experience?
quote:
Given your scenerio, I would hope that if someone had the 'experience' of god telling them to kill, then the 'experience' would be treated as valid and the person helped before a killing occurs.
But that contradicts what you said, doesn't it?
"Every human experience is a valid experience", right? So, why should we stop the person from carrying out God's will?
quote:
Hasn't 'god' ever given the order to kill? I wonder where the idea came from?
It was just a typical example. Replace "God" with "aliens" if you want to, it makes no difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by pelican, posted 11-02-2007 6:53 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by pelican, posted 11-02-2007 8:55 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 262 of 300 (432154)
11-04-2007 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by pelican
11-02-2007 8:55 PM


Re: human experience
quote:
The problem occurs when the person, having the 'experience' of voices ordering them to kill, is not heard. The one hearing voices/god/aliens and obeying is in serious trouble and can cause even more serious trouble. Surely the thoughts are a big clue?Surely, prevention is better than cure, or revenge?
But every hiuman experience is a valid human experience, isn't it?
Who are we to tell the person who hears God's voice that they shouldn't believe it because we think it isn't really God?
How do you know that a person hearing God's voice is in "serious trouble"? All human experience is valid; none should be discounted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by pelican, posted 11-02-2007 8:55 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by pelican, posted 11-04-2007 5:52 PM nator has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024