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Author Topic:   What you want to know about Christ.
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 252 of 300 (431883)
11-02-2007 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Taz
10-31-2007 4:33 PM


human experience
The one seeing the unicorn would be having a real human experience. It doesn't make the unicorn real but the experience is and is a valid experience, not to be confused with insanity. That is just a judgement.
The ones not seeing the unicorn are having a different experience but also valid. It doesn't make the unicorn unreal because they do not see it. This can't be judged as sanity.
Every human experience is valid. None should be discounted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Taz, posted 10-31-2007 4:33 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by nator, posted 11-02-2007 6:39 PM pelican has replied
 Message 254 by Taz, posted 11-02-2007 6:43 PM pelican has replied
 Message 259 by iceage, posted 11-02-2007 9:53 PM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 255 of 300 (431890)
11-02-2007 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by nator
11-02-2007 6:39 PM


Re: human experience
Hang on, you are jumping the gun. I meant the 'experience' is valid. That is, the 'experience' of seeing a unicorn is valid. It cannot not be a human experience.
Given your scenerio, I would hope that if someone had the 'experience' of god telling them to kill, then the 'experience' would be treated as valid and the person helped before a killing occurs.
Hasn't 'god' ever given the order to kill? I wonder where the idea came from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by nator, posted 11-02-2007 6:39 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by nator, posted 11-02-2007 7:45 PM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 256 of 300 (431891)
11-02-2007 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Taz
11-02-2007 6:43 PM


Re: human experience
No, I think insanity and psychosis exist. Those are labels describing symptoms, but the human being who is exibiting symptoms is not a label.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Taz, posted 11-02-2007 6:43 PM Taz has not replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 258 of 300 (431914)
11-02-2007 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by nator
11-02-2007 7:45 PM


Re: human experience
"How is a human claiming to have seen a unicorn not a human experience?"
It is an experience. Nothing more until judgement is made.
"But that contradicts what you said, doesn't it?"
How?
"Every human experience is a valid experience", right? So, why should we stop the person from carrying out God's will?"
Silly question.
The problem occurs when the person, having the 'experience' of voices ordering them to kill, is not heard. The one hearing voices/god/aliens and obeying is in serious trouble and can cause even more serious trouble. Surely the thoughts are a big clue?Surely, prevention is better than cure, or revenge?
Edited by Heinrik, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by nator, posted 11-02-2007 7:45 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by nator, posted 11-04-2007 8:27 AM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 260 of 300 (431939)
11-02-2007 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by iceage
11-02-2007 9:53 PM


Re: human experience
"Ignore the extreme cases of insanity, people from other religions have religious experiences and visions. The Iranian president has claimed such experiences and the content is very much in line with their religious ideology. Are these experiences valid? Are they from God or something else. How does one differentiate?"
Personally, I think that everything comes from within and life has put it there. Not god. Not demons. Not devil. Not the man in the moon. People just don't/can't or don't wish to take responsibilty for their own minds.
I am not trying to validate the claims made about the content or information within the experience. There is a difference between the validity of the experience and the validity of the content.
Aren't there many preachers who claim to hear the voice of god telling them to preach the gospel, e.g Joyce Meyer? The validity of her claims are accepted without question by many, but could be just as real\unreal as god telling them to kill.
The experience is real to them whether it is acceptable to others or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by iceage, posted 11-02-2007 9:53 PM iceage has not replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 263 of 300 (432230)
11-04-2007 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by nator
11-04-2007 8:27 AM


Re: human experience
Many claim to 'hear' god and do very well out of it. I was referring only to those who were 'hearing orders to kill or harm another'. As you say, and I agree, all experiences are valid but it doesn't make the content valid. The content could well be an illusion, but having the experience of an illusion is valid.
We are trying to judge the validity of an illusion when we don't even know if it is one. Maybe those who claim to hear god, and indeed have a conversation with god, may all be having illusions? Some could be love sponsored and some fear sponsored, and in truth this could be the only difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by nator, posted 11-04-2007 8:27 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by nator, posted 11-05-2007 9:54 AM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 270 of 300 (432414)
11-05-2007 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by nator
11-05-2007 9:54 AM


Re: human experience
Thanks. I don't think I fully explained the point I'm trying to make. I am meaning the 'validity of the belief' The persons' actual 'belief' in the 'experience.' They are having an experience that they are fully engaged in. The experience itself is real. It is a separate aspect to the 'meaning' or 'content' of the experience.
Maybe a person 'believes' they are hearing god or 'believes' they are seeing a unicorn. It is 'actually happening' to them and is a human experience, therefore their 'belief' of the experience is valid and we cannot tell them they are not having that experience because they are.
E.G Joyce Mayer (preacher) 'believes' to be hearing and speaking with god regularly. No one else can hear it. It comes directly through her. How can we prove the validity of her claims? We cannot. We either accept or reject her claims, but the experience will remain valid to her. She believes it is god and has convinced others it is god. There is still no proof that she communicates with god. Everything she preaches is from within her and within her experiences...........
So why would we believe her and not others who claim to have bizarre experiences with the unseen?
How would you feel if I claimed that: during a prayer for the truth, a blinding light appeared that penetrated my soul, bringing me peace that I had never felt before. At that moment, God spoke gently to me. God was answering my prayer. He said, "faith has no bearing on the truth. 100% faith in anything does not make it true."
Where does your focus go? Does it go to the content or to the messenger? God also told me that, "we 'believe' what we 'want' to believe."
It isn't true, of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by nator, posted 11-05-2007 9:54 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Taz, posted 11-05-2007 11:32 PM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 272 of 300 (432434)
11-06-2007 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Taz
11-05-2007 11:32 PM


Re: human experience
TAZ : "We are discussing whether someone's experience accurately reflects reality, especially when that experience is not shared by anyone else."
This is exactly the point I am making. How can we know if for example Joyce Mayers' experiences of god accurately reflect reality? It is only what she says.
How can we know if another's experiences of the unseen reflect reality or NOT? We cannot see or prove many claims made of connection with another realm. Take John Edwards as another example. He claims to connect to 'the other side'. Is that logical or provable?
The point I am making is that we cannot know what is real because the claims are 'originating from the same place' and appearing within the individual in the same way, as in 'through themselves'.
Some claim to hear voices of god, jesus, angels, past humans, aliens, etc, but all come from within. If one hears god telling them to spread the gospel and another doesn't, which is true? If one hears an angel telling them to forgive and another doesn't, which is true? If one hears god telling them to kill and another doesn't, which is true? If one communicates with a dead child and the mother doesn't, which is true?
As they all have the same thing in common whether it's the projection of a unicorn or the voice of god, whatever it may be is coming from within the individual. They could not speak of it otherwise.
TAZ: "We are talking about telling the difference between fantasy and reality, not whether an experience is real to a person or not."
So, how do we tell the difference between fantasy and reality?
TAZ: "You are making an argument that is no-brainer."
Not a very constructive opinion. Sometimes it is better to keep them to yourself as it tells far more about you than it does about me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Taz, posted 11-05-2007 11:32 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by sidelined, posted 11-06-2007 2:03 AM pelican has replied
 Message 274 by Taz, posted 11-06-2007 1:45 PM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 275 of 300 (432563)
11-06-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Taz
11-06-2007 1:45 PM


Re: human experience
TAZ: "Remember not to respond at all. It's best that you don't come back to this forum. I am convinced that my experience with god was real. He really did tell me that you would go to hell for eternity if you post another message on this forum."
Jesus! It's hot here! Thank god there's still the internet.
Do I believe you or not? Did you have that experience or not? You could have had it, yes? Only you would know, yes? "My experience" (as in 'your experience' described above) are the operative words. The focus needs to stay there. They are the beginning. "My experience" means exactly what it says. Either the person has had the experience or is lying about it.
Taz: "For the millionth time, you experiment. You weigh the experience against the experiences of other, more objective people."
Again the operative words are 'the experience' and 'the experience of others'. All of them are experiences, experienced by human beings and therefore, are all valid as human experiences. There is no need to go any further than the experience itself.
We do complicate matters. I've found that it is difficult for a complicated, intelligent person to grasp a simple concept. That is all I am putting forward here. A simple concept prior to examination. Did they have that experience or not?
TAZ: "At this point, isn't it a little stupid to create a whole religion out of this one experience that noone else can experience?"
I think if you asked this question to anyone the answer would be the same, but it has been done.
The point I am trying to make is in defense of those having bizarre, frightening, threatening, wierd and wonderful experiences. If their experience is discounted, they are discounted, and usually labelled. The focus is taken away from the humanity of the person. They are seen as less than. They are de-humanized. This is very wrong.
Who are the ones doing the judging? Probably those who haven't had any experiences or don't admit to them. I believe if we are to have a peaceful world then we have to take matters into our our hands and STOP de-humanizing human beings and this is a good place to start.
P.S Phew. You do have a lot to say. Your logo suits you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Taz, posted 11-06-2007 1:45 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Taz, posted 11-06-2007 8:56 PM pelican has replied
 Message 285 by LinearAq, posted 11-08-2007 10:56 AM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 276 of 300 (432564)
11-06-2007 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by sidelined
11-06-2007 2:03 AM


Re: human experience
I asked:
"So, how do we tell the difference between fantasy and reality?"
Sidelined: "We conduct an experiment to test the claims made under proper critical examination to see if the phenomena that is claimed to occur holds water."
Thanks sidelined, I think I got a little side-tracked there and it's completely out of context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by sidelined, posted 11-06-2007 2:03 AM sidelined has not replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 278 of 300 (432579)
11-06-2007 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Taz
11-06-2007 8:56 PM


Re: human experience
Taz: "I've been suffering high blood pressure in my young age from talking to bigoted christians."
So you know what it's like to belong to a minority group? Do you know what it's like being in a minority group who experience a different reality than the one you live in?
This is obviously an emotional issue for you and I'm truly sorry you have been de-humanized in others' perceptions. It really is terrible but aren't you doing the same by labelling them 'bigoted christians'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Taz, posted 11-06-2007 8:56 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Taz, posted 11-06-2007 11:42 PM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 280 of 300 (432606)
11-07-2007 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Taz
11-06-2007 11:42 PM


Re: human experience
Taz: "Actually, I belong to an even smaller minority group than you think. My group is called the united brotherhood of straight-people-who-are-damn-tired-of-seeing-gay-people-treated-like-second-class-citizens."
great! You are defending the rights of my child but is it just a brotherhood or are sisters invited? Also,is your group not stooping to a lower level by de-humanizing those you name 'bigots? Shall we just throw them to the lions?
How much understanding have you of these people living on the other side of your reality? Do you think your reality is the only one and is the correct one and you will label anyone who disagrees?
You are doing exactly the same as they. I think that is an equal experience, don't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Taz, posted 11-06-2007 11:42 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Taz, posted 11-07-2007 4:06 PM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 282 of 300 (432683)
11-07-2007 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Taz
11-07-2007 4:06 PM


Re: human experience
TAZ: "Dehumanize? It's a fact that they are bigots."
C'mon Taz. Bigot: a person who is intolerant,esp.regarding religion or race. You have to be what you want to see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Taz, posted 11-07-2007 4:06 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Taz, posted 11-07-2007 10:56 PM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 287 of 300 (432865)
11-08-2007 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Taz
11-07-2007 10:56 PM


Re: human experience
TAZ: "I still don't understand what you are saying here. Perhaps you could be a little less cryptic? Are you saying that a person having a prejudice against someone else because of his sexual orientation is not bigotry? Are you saying that only racists are bigots but homophobes are not? Please be less cryptic."
TAZ, I am referring directly to you personally from the information you have given. You are being intolerant, as defined in 'bigotry', towards those who do not agree with you.
It is not a case of right or wrong. It is a case of 'who you, personally, are being' and 'what you, personally, are doing'. In fighting your case to be right, are you are becoming a 'bigot?'.
There is a saying that comes to mind : Let him who is without sin throw the first stone.
There is a background story to every human being. We are all a product of our whole life experiences and each one is unique. If you desire change then the change begins with you. If you wish to see tolerance amongst others then you first must be tolerant. You have to be what you want to see.
It's sort of putting your money where your mouth is. You cannot get away with preaching 'do as I say and not as I do'. We have many leaders doing just that. Are you being a shepherd or a sheep?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Taz, posted 11-07-2007 10:56 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by LinearAq, posted 11-08-2007 7:34 PM pelican has replied
 Message 292 by Taz, posted 11-12-2007 9:40 PM pelican has replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 288 of 300 (432870)
11-08-2007 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by LinearAq
11-08-2007 10:56 AM


Re: Experience = Reality?
I too am very skeptical on the conclusions drawn from the experiences but no problem at all with the description of the experience.
"A friend of yours has the "experience" of God telling her that she can fly and needs to spread His word by flying around San Francisco. She says the she is going to jump off the Golden Gate bridge to start this flight as God has ordered her. So...do you de-humanize her by discounting her "experience", or do you let San Francisco Bay de-humanize her as she "experiences" deceleration trauma?"
Only the first part was the experience. The second part is the conclusion the friend has drawn from the experience. She must have had prior experiences before reaching this level but even so, if she truly believes she can fly then the answer to your question is a bit obvious, isn't it?
Her problem is in not accepting it is all in her mind and nothing to be afraid of. What you can do is listen and challenge her conclusions(in a safe environment.) Get her to demonstrate her flying abilities. Show her she has choices and doesn't need to do everything she is told, not even by god. That's the real bloody problem. God says jump. We say, how high?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by LinearAq, posted 11-08-2007 10:56 AM LinearAq has not replied

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