|
Author
|
Topic: Jean Charles de Menezes verdict
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
Message 10 of 113 (431985)
11-03-2007 10:31 AM
|
Reply to: Message 6 by Modulous
11-03-2007 7:13 AM
|
|
Just a few points.
If, as the OP says, the person was held down and shot seven times in the face, it does not sound like the shooters were well trained, and certainly not marksmen. There is a common misconception that police are trained shooters. Unfortunately, this is very often simply not the case. For most police, a handgun is simply more damn weight to carry, another thing to get in the way, something to prod and poke you whenever you sit down, something required. For too many, marksmanship means qualifying above the minimum standard once a year to keep the job.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 7:13 AM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 11 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 12:20 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 13 of 113 (432004)
11-03-2007 12:28 PM
|
Reply to: Message 11 by Modulous
11-03-2007 12:20 PM
|
|
Re: Just a few points.
The training is carried out by people like the SAS, who believe it is not lack of firearms skill that causes the problems, but the lack of psychological testing to route out the gung-ho types. Well, if this incident is an example of the training being given, then I would say it is not very encouraging.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 12:20 PM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 1:37 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 16 of 113 (432025)
11-03-2007 1:45 PM
|
Reply to: Message 15 by Modulous
11-03-2007 1:37 PM
|
|
Re: Just a few points.
I think you'll find that this isn't an example of the training being given - unless you think the SAS would regularly carry out acts like that? Actually I would think that that is exactly what SAS would train to do.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 1:37 PM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 17 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 2:09 PM | | jar has replied | | | Message 18 by CK, posted 11-03-2007 2:10 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 19 of 113 (432041)
11-03-2007 2:16 PM
|
Reply to: Message 17 by Modulous
11-03-2007 2:09 PM
|
|
Re: Just a few points.
The SAS are trained to not establish risk, to not adequately identify targets, to wait until the last possible moment and then shoot to kill a suspect without adequate warnings or attempts to establish contact? Well, since that is not what I said, I'm not at all sure what the hell you are talking about. I assume these folk "Did establish risk, they did limit damage to just the target, they did wait until they thought it was the last possible moment and they did shoot to kill. And YES, in SAS or Special Ops you do NOT give warning. It's just that in this case they were wrong.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 2:09 PM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 25 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 2:53 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 21 of 113 (432044)
11-03-2007 2:21 PM
|
Reply to: Message 18 by CK
11-03-2007 2:10 PM
|
|
Re: Just a few points.
Generally Police marksmen are trained to put 3 rounds into the chest as the means of taking down a gunman. However in this situation, that was changed because they were (mistakenly) expecting to be facing a suicide bomber. Yes, COM (Center of Mass) vs CNS (Central Nervous System). In most cases it is two to COM and one to CNS but in cases where you are expecting either body armor or as in this case, the possibility of a chest worn bomb, straight to CNS. The goal in ALL cases is to reduce and if possible, stop the threat. The key in this particular case is if the suspect was on the ground and in custody, under control, were the shots to CNS justified?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by CK, posted 11-03-2007 2:10 PM | | CK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 22 by CK, posted 11-03-2007 2:27 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 24 of 113 (432056)
11-03-2007 2:36 PM
|
Reply to: Message 22 by CK
11-03-2007 2:27 PM
|
|
Re: Just a few points.
Me too.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by CK, posted 11-03-2007 2:27 PM | | CK has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 27 of 113 (432062)
11-03-2007 3:02 PM
|
Reply to: Message 25 by Modulous
11-03-2007 2:53 PM
|
|
Re: Just a few points.
Are you saying that the problem wasn't lack of training, or poor training - but instead that it was just that they were wrong? Based on the information I have, yes, UNLESS, as has been stated in this thread, the person was shot after being subdued. If the threat was stopped and they continued shooting, then it is a training issue. If there were other options then there was a training issue.
This is going away from my original point which was nothing about decision making training but 'the ability to fire a weapon and hit a target'. I was trying to suggest that the skill levels of your average Joe to take out one police officer are much lower than the corresponding skill an armed officer has of taking out your average Joe and the average Joe was outnumbered. However, my personal experience is that the average sport shooter I associate with is likely better trained than the average cop when it comes to those tasks. I know that I would prefer to have the average US cop shooting at me than any of my shooting friends. This is not meant as an indictment of the police, but it is hard for someone who shoots a few rounds annually at qualifying to be as competent as someone who practices regularly often firing thousands of rounds a month.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 2:53 PM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 28 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 3:08 PM | | jar has replied | | | Message 32 by CK, posted 11-03-2007 3:16 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 31 of 113 (432067)
11-03-2007 3:15 PM
|
Reply to: Message 28 by Modulous
11-03-2007 3:08 PM
|
|
Re: Just a few points.
No question. But then firing thousands of rounds a month would make you exceptional, not the norm. The norm in Britain would be less practice (nill will be the modal amount of practice) than a British Armed police officer, yes? I don't know what the skill level of an armed British police officer is. As to the rest, it really is irrelevant to the issue. If the public were allowed to own guns what would the general proficiency level be? I just don't know. Those are issues for you folk to decide. The question remains, "Was the suspect in this particular case in custody when shot? Was the shooting justified?" I am not trivializing any part of the case. For example, even if the person was in custody, if there was still a means of him setting off some possible bomb, the actions would likely have been justified.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 3:08 PM | | Modulous has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by CK, posted 11-03-2007 3:20 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 34 of 113 (432070)
11-03-2007 3:21 PM
|
Reply to: Message 32 by CK
11-03-2007 3:16 PM
|
|
Re: Just a few points.
Neat, just for my FYI I would love to know what qualifying consisted of, for example things like decision making and precision/discrimination drills.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by CK, posted 11-03-2007 3:16 PM | | CK has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 35 of 113 (432071)
11-03-2007 3:23 PM
|
Reply to: Message 33 by CK
11-03-2007 3:20 PM
|
|
Re: Just a few points.
Also neat, but shotguns are not really known as selective. Just out of curiosity, what guns?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by CK, posted 11-03-2007 3:20 PM | | CK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 38 by CK, posted 11-03-2007 3:29 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 39 of 113 (432075)
11-03-2007 3:38 PM
|
Reply to: Message 38 by CK
11-03-2007 3:29 PM
|
|
Re: Just a few points.
Wonderful. Greener makes some very, very nice shotguns. Enjoy them.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by CK, posted 11-03-2007 3:29 PM | | CK has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 88 of 113 (432399)
11-05-2007 8:08 PM
|
Reply to: Message 87 by Legend
11-05-2007 7:56 PM
|
|
Re: there's no such thing as 'reasonable force'
so, you'd be prepared to take the risk that they may have guns which they will point and shoot at where your warning comes from ? Absolutely.
By definition, it implies an ability to reason and in such situations you can't reason you just react, adrenalin takes over and you lash out with all you've got (or run like hell). A better definition would be 'with whatever force you can muster' and if you can muster a loaded shotgun then you will use it. That is why a reasonable and responsible person trains for such situations under as realistic conditions as can be arranged. You train so that you can make the snap judgment to fire or not fire. The goal is to simply stop a threat, no more. Once the threat is stopped there is no further reason for force.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Legend, posted 11-05-2007 7:56 PM | | Legend has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 95 of 113 (432558)
11-06-2007 6:26 PM
|
Reply to: Message 93 by Legend
11-06-2007 5:53 PM
|
|
Re: there's no such thing as 'reasonable force'
If you want to take your chances, fair enough, it's up to you. I train for it.
But we're not talking about trained professionals here, we're talking about your average Joe. In Tony Martin's case we're talking about a middle-aged farmer living alone in a remote farmhouse. You can't seriously expect him to handle such a situation like a Delta Force veteran! Sorry, that is irrelevant. I am an old fart, not even close to middle-age anymore. If I can train for such situations, why can't someone else?
The DeMenezes incident only higlights the double standards : if a trained professional isn't vilified for losing his composure enough to shoot a held-down person seven times in the face, then how the hell does anyone have the gall to criticise someone like Martin for using 'unreasonable force' ?! Sorry, but I have not vilified Martin nor have I excused the DeMenezes. I have, in fact asked several times for specifics about the DeMenez shooting. In the Martin case, shooting someone who is running away and not posing an immediate risk IS excessive force.
And I'm saying that an intruder in your home in the middle of the night is a very clear and present threat, regardless of the direction in which he's moving. Yes, I know that is what you are saying, and I am saying I believe you are wrong.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Legend, posted 11-06-2007 5:53 PM | | Legend has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2