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Author Topic:   How to make sand.
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 121 (432078)
11-03-2007 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
11-02-2007 11:17 PM


Re: Buzsaw/Genesis Model
Jar, you conveniently (likely on purpose) omitted some of the more pertenant verses relative to my hypothesis. Some of the verses you did cite were ones which had nothing to do with the points of the quote from me (not designated) to me but tied it in with the irrevelant verses which you cited. This is not only shabby work on your part but it is deceptive and appears to be designed to somehow malign my intelligence.
Now for the pertenent texts which do apply to the specifics of my hypothesis (the last of which was cited in your group):
ASV GEN 1 writes:
2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
The above verses are the ones relative to my Genesis hypothetical model.
Buzsaw/Genesis Model:
1. Deep dark watery planet surface to which God via his spirit applied work indicative of movement of some manner for an undeterminate period of time; undeterminate because there was yet no sun & moon to effect a 24 hr day.
2. After an undeterminate time, light is applied, likely via the same spirit of God which was doing the work.
3. Verse 6 clearly implies significant evaporation to the extent of creating the atmosphere as per science in that after light indicative of extensive heat so as to evaporate up a significant amount of water enough to create dry land and seas. This all again ensues for an undeterminate period of time, given there was yet no sun and moon etc.
4. Not until all of this work is applied to earth does the sun and moon kick in to become the determination of time as we measure it today and to sustain the plants (created on day 3 before sun & moon) and all living from thence on.
Btw, none of the above violates any of the basic scientific laws which makes the above a viable debatable model. The thermodynamic aspect of this has been extensively debated elsewhere so this is not the place to argue that. The reason for all of the above is to hopefully satisfy the demand for a model of how sand could have perhaps been made as per topic.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 11-02-2007 11:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 11-03-2007 4:06 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 63 by DrJones*, posted 11-03-2007 5:49 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 68 by Brian, posted 11-17-2007 6:46 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 121 (432086)
11-03-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Buzsaw
11-03-2007 3:47 PM


Topic Buz is "How to make sand?"
Jar, you conveniently (likely on purpose) omitted some of the more pertenant verses relative to my hypothesis.
Buz, that is an absolutely FALSE statement as anyone can see who looks at Message 59 and you are once again misrepresenting both me and the Bible.
Some of the verses you did cite were ones which had nothing to do with the points of the quote from me (not designated) to me but tied it in with the irrevelant verses which you cited.
Actually I did include your quote as well as explain the relevance as anyone who reads Message 59 can see.
This is not only shabby work on your part but it is deceptive and appears to be designed to somehow malign my intelligence.
It is not your intelligence I questioned but your accuracy.
1. Deep dark watery planet surface to which God via his spirit applied work indicative of movement of some manner for an undeterminate period of time; undeterminate because there was yet no sun & moon to effect a 24 hr day.
This is called a Special Pleading, you are referencing the Bible as though it were evidence of something factual. It is also irrelevant to making sand.
2. After an undeterminate time, light is applied, likely via the same spirit of God which was doing the work.
Still just a Special Pleading and irrelevant to making sand.
3. Verse 6 clearly implies significant evaporation to the extent of creating the atmosphere as per science in that after light indicative of extensive heat so as to evaporate up a significant amount of water enough to create dry land and seas. This all again ensues for an undeterminate period of time, given there was yet no sun and moon etc.
Still a Special Pleading but also a misrepresentation of what the Bible actually says and you quoted. There is NO mention of evaporation or of an atmosphere in verse 6. It is also irrelevant to the question of how to make sand.
4. Not until all of this work is applied to earth does the sun and moon kick in to become the determination of time as we measure it today and to sustain the plants (created on day 3 before sun & moon) and all living from thence on.
Another Special Pleading as well as a misrepresentation of what he Bible actually says. The Bible clearly says that there were days, long before there was a sun. You can spout any fantasies you want but the Bible lists days. It is also irrelevant to the question of how to make sand.
So ALL you are doing is continuing to post Special Pleading, irrelevant nonsense and to misrepresent what the Bible says.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-topic

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Buzsaw, posted 11-03-2007 3:47 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 63 of 121 (432091)
11-03-2007 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Buzsaw
11-03-2007 3:47 PM


Re: Buzsaw/Genesis Model
Btw, none of the above violates any of the basic scientific laws which makes the above a viable debatable model
Seeing as we dont have any evidence of this "god" entity you have no factual basis for your model and therefore it is worthless.
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

Live every week like it's Shark Week!
Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Buzsaw, posted 11-03-2007 3:47 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 121 (432962)
11-09-2007 10:44 AM


Bump for Antioch's Fire
Start at Message 1 sir.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 121 (433943)
11-13-2007 6:03 PM


Bump
Still looking for a model to examine.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 121 (434689)
11-16-2007 9:47 PM


Still looking for the Creationist explanation for sand.
Is there some reason that Creationists refuse to provide their model that explains sand?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Brian, posted 11-17-2007 6:35 AM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 67 of 121 (434756)
11-17-2007 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
11-16-2007 9:47 PM


Re: Still looking for the Creationist explanation for sand.
You know I rarely post on science threads so this might be a poor post.
Okay here goes.
Right, creationists obviously believe in a special creation event, a supernatural event. So they could simply believe that God created sand in an instant during creation week.
So, if the creation of the Earth and everything on it is supernatural in their eyes, then surely there will not be the scientific evidence to support this event that mainstream science would expect to see evidence of. If science gives evidence that sand takes millions of years to form then isn't science using the wrong tools to detect an instant creation of sand?
You guys appear to be coming at it with two different methods, one scientific and one theological.
Is the problem that the creationists think they can provide acceptable scientific models to support their theology?
Edited by Brian, : science sux lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 11-16-2007 9:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 11-17-2007 11:50 AM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 68 of 121 (434757)
11-17-2007 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Buzsaw
11-03-2007 3:47 PM


Re: Buzsaw/Genesis Model
Hi Buz,
I've asked this before and you may have missed it, but I would really liek an answer please.
Why can't the creation days be 24 hours long?
Cheers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Buzsaw, posted 11-03-2007 3:47 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 11-22-2007 12:21 PM Brian has replied
 Message 73 by IamJoseph, posted 11-24-2007 7:41 AM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 121 (434790)
11-17-2007 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Brian
11-17-2007 6:35 AM


Re: Still looking for the Creationist explanation for sand.
If I could get one to make the Special Pleading and just admit their explanation is magic, that would be one thing and we could discuss that. However so far no one has done even that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Brian, posted 11-17-2007 6:35 AM Brian has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 121 (435691)
11-22-2007 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Brian
11-17-2007 6:46 AM


Re: Buzsaw/Genesis Model
Brian writes:
Hi Buz,
I've asked this before and you may have missed it, but I would really liek an answer please.
Why can't the creation days be 24 hours long?
1. Because God being the one who originated all true science, science should be applied when applicable. As per Gen 1, it took more heat than the sun could provide to create an atmosphere from a dark cold watery planet.
2. According to the Biblical record of Gen 1, the 24 hour day was not determined until day four. According to the text it was the presence of the sun that did that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Brian, posted 11-17-2007 6:46 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 11-22-2007 12:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 72 by Brian, posted 11-24-2007 5:39 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 121 (435695)
11-22-2007 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Buzsaw
11-22-2007 12:21 PM


Support? or can we head towards the topic?
Buz writes:
1. Because God being the one who originated all true science, science should be applied when applicable. As per Gen 1, it took more heat than the sun could provide to create an atmosphere from a dark cold watery planet.
Huh?
Genesis 1 writes:
Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning”the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning”the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
So it appears that the atmosphere, sky, existed even before the sun was created.
buz writes:
2. According to the Biblical record of Gen 1, the 24 hour day was not determined until day four. According to the text it was the presence of the sun that did that.
HUH?
Let's look.
Genesis 1 writes:
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning”the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning”the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning”the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights”the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning”the fourth day.
Wow.
quote:
And there was evening, and there was morning”the first day.
quote:
And there was evening, and there was morning”the second day.
quote:
And there was evening, and there was morning”the third day.
quote:
And there was evening, and there was morning”the fourth day.
Exactly the same description is used for each of the first four days.
But WAIT! There is more.
quote:
And there was evening, and there was morning”the fifth day.
quote:
And there was evening, and there was morning”the sixth day.
The same terms are used for the fifth and sixth day.
So where is the Biblical record of Gen 1 that supports your positions?
What the hell does any of this nonsense have to do with the topic; in case you missed it the topic is "How to make sand."
Edited by jar, : add topic request.
Edited by jar, : Fix sub-title so it doesn't ruffle Buz's feathers.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 11-22-2007 12:21 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by IamJoseph, posted 11-24-2007 7:45 AM jar has replied
 Message 75 by IamJoseph, posted 11-24-2007 7:48 AM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 72 of 121 (436021)
11-24-2007 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Buzsaw
11-22-2007 12:21 PM


Re: Buzsaw/Genesis Model
I only asked why the days cannot be 24 hours long because the text doesn't make a distinction, the same formula is used for each day.
So why can't they have been 24 hours long, is there some evidence that forces you to reinterpret the text?
You say something about god and science, if it is science that forces you to interpret the text, what are the scientific arguments, evidence, and date of the earth in your opinion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 11-22-2007 12:21 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 12-07-2007 7:45 PM Brian has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 73 of 121 (436046)
11-24-2007 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Brian
11-17-2007 6:46 AM


Re: Buzsaw/Genesis Model
Have you factored the sun's luminosity, listed as appearing in the 4th creation day in the texts?
quote:
Gen. 1/16 And God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth
That verse culminates in the 4th creation day, and says also, that the earth was NOT lit before this instant, and that the separation of day and night had NOT begun. This makes the 24 divisions of the day [hours] premature, and would signify no purpose - specially before the advent of humans.
This has another subsequence, namely that the creation days are varied from latter days, making these six days as cosmic days, or epochs of time. It is affirmed by the calendar decreed in genesis, which begins its first day not with these creation days but with the birthday of Adam.
Scientifically, there is a good match here: stars do not become luminous untill a fruition stage, and are not born as fully developed stars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Brian, posted 11-17-2007 6:46 AM Brian has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 74 of 121 (436050)
11-24-2007 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
11-22-2007 12:36 PM


Re: Support? or can we head towards the topic?
"How to make sand."
Are sand grains considered crystals - or just pulverised rock particles? They seem to have a constant size and shape, which makes me wonder their actual designation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 11-22-2007 12:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 10:17 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 75 of 121 (436051)
11-24-2007 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
11-22-2007 12:36 PM


Re: Support? or can we head towards the topic?
Also, a good trivia question, or better, one must do some guessmatics here.
Q: What would be greater in number, the grains of sand upon the earth, or the stars in the 'known' universe?
Q2: Can sand occur w/o water, like on the Moon, which was described as dust and rocks, but not as sand?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 11-22-2007 12:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 10:18 AM IamJoseph has not replied
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