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Author Topic:   Where/how do believers draw the line and why?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 88 (434095)
11-14-2007 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Spektical
11-13-2007 3:49 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:
but what does that have to do with the story of babel?
To spell it out for you, here's the part of Message 11 that answers your question:
quote:
... some explanation was needed for the different languages.
That's all. Why do people speak different languages? Because, once upon a time, a bunch of people get together and tried to build a tower to heaven. God stopped them by making them all speak different languages so they couldn't cooperate.
We know it's just a story because there are lots of towers-to-heaven all over Mesopotamia. They were built by people who spoke different languages and there were different languages before any of them were built.
It's just like Kipling's story about how the elephant got its trunk (which also has a talking snake).

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Spektical, posted 11-13-2007 3:49 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Spektical, posted 11-14-2007 3:16 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 19 of 88 (434138)
11-14-2007 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Spektical
11-14-2007 3:16 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:
The question is still unaswered....why do religious people take some stories literally and some not?
That question has been answered. Stories are not taken literally if there are clues that they didn't really happen. You seem to be addressing only those "religious people" who ignore the clues and believe contrary to the evidence. Why would you expect rational answers from people whose beliefs are irrational?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Spektical, posted 11-14-2007 3:16 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 9:52 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 22 of 88 (434302)
11-15-2007 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Spektical
11-15-2007 9:52 AM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:
The story of Babel is a very profound one to me because it conveys how wonderfully creative yet trapped the human race was/is. It shows that if we came together alot of things can be accomplished.
You're ignoring the point of the story: that God prevented that accomplishment from happening.
God is a means, not an end, and hence is ultimately irrelevant to our lives.
Why on earth would devout God-believers write a story about God being irrelevant?
The question is, "Where/how do believers draw the line and why?" - not "How can Spektical turn the Bible into a warm-and-fuzzy celebration of human creativity?"

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 9:52 AM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 11:29 AM ringo has replied
 Message 78 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-16-2007 4:39 AM ringo has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 24 of 88 (434311)
11-15-2007 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Spektical
11-15-2007 11:29 AM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:
Maybe I should've just plainly asked why are religious people living a lie?
There's a difference between "living a lie" and believing in silly things. If you really want to know what that difference is, stop belittling every answer.
You've been told that Babel is a just-so story intended to explain the diversity of languages. Whether the event is historically accurate or not, that's the reason it's in the Bible. You're the only one who's suggesting otherwise.
Maybe you need to pick another example.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 11:29 AM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 11:57 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 28 of 88 (434319)
11-15-2007 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Spektical
11-15-2007 11:57 AM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:
That's the reason for YOU and the rest of the people who have been brainwashed in early childhood.
That's what you asked for in the OP. If you want to spout your own opinions, start a blog.
I'll give you another example: The story of Cain and Abel.
What about 'em?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 11:57 AM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 12:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 88 (434325)
11-15-2007 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Spektical
11-15-2007 12:11 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:
What is the popular interpretation of this story?
Some people believe it really happened and some don't. Since it isn't a very unusual incident, nothing miraculous about it, there's no particular reason to say it didn't.
This isn't Sunday School. If you have a point about the Cain and Abel story, please make it. I'm not much inclined to waste my day trying to wring a meaningful post out of you.
Don't make me lose the smilie.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 12:11 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 12:32 PM ringo has replied
 Message 36 by jar, posted 11-15-2007 12:38 PM ringo has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 37 of 88 (434334)
11-15-2007 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Spektical
11-15-2007 12:32 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:
The popular belief of the story is about the relationship with God and the choices the 2 brothers made. However, the story is really about survival.
You're still missing the point of your own thread. Nobody cares what you think the story is "really about".
Where do you think believers draw a line? Tell us what believers think. How has that story "caused the many sects within the primary faith itself"?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 12:32 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 1:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 88 (434338)
11-15-2007 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Spektical
11-15-2007 1:20 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Spektical writes:
That was my contention to begin with ringo....are you gonna contribute something of your own or just describe what I said?
I'm asking you to support your contention.
So far, you haven't shown any lines drawn by believers between the literal and the non-literal. You've just given your opinion of how certain texts "should" be interpreted.
Give us an example of a text that some believers take literally and some don't, such that different sects result. Then we can get down to the "why".

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 1:20 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 2:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 88 (434347)
11-15-2007 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Spektical
11-15-2007 2:22 PM


Spektical writes:
Ok...the unitarian sect and catholic one.
What about them?
Where do believers draw a line that causes some of them to be unitarian and some catholic? Where are they making a distinction between literal and non-literal in the Bible?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 2:22 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 3:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 43 of 88 (434350)
11-15-2007 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Spektical
11-15-2007 3:20 PM


Spektical writes:
Do you know what unitarianism is?
I'm not going to play silly one-line games with you.
I asked you for a text that supports your OP. Answer the question, or at least back up your claims in some meaningful way.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 3:20 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 3:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 47 of 88 (434359)
11-15-2007 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Spektical
11-15-2007 3:35 PM


Spektical writes:
I don't need your help in articulating my point.
I'm not trying to help. I'm trying to get you to substantiate your point. If unitarianism has something to do with your point, it's up to you to explain it to us.
So far, all you've done is hand-wave the answers you've been given. It's time to step up to the plate and discuss your own topic.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 3:35 PM Spektical has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 59 of 88 (434404)
11-15-2007 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Spektical
11-15-2007 6:17 PM


Re: Is there a point?
Spektical writes:
The unitarian sect of Christianity believes that Jesus was a prophet but not God himself. The rest of Christianity believes that Jesus is in fact God. This dispute of ideas is a prime example of the OP.
The OP suggests that sectarian differences are the result of differences in bible interpretation and, specifically, differences between literal and non-literal interpretations. You haven't shown that.
It could be argued, for example, that many (most?) sectarian differences are a result of political factors rather than Biblical interpretation.
Until you actually post something to substantiate the OP, your point is dead in the water.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 6:17 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 6:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 61 of 88 (434419)
11-15-2007 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Spektical
11-15-2007 6:43 PM


Re: Is there a point?
Spektical writes:
If a people (like the protestant movement) are feeling a certain injustice because of sanctions manifested by the Catholic church, they decide to change the interpretation of the biblical stories to suit their cause and separate.
So "the Protestant movement" was one giant lump? What about Henry VIII separating from the Catholic Church because they wouldn't give him a divorce? Where's the difference in Bible interpretation there? To this day, there's relatively little difference in Bible interpretation between the Roman Catholic and Anglican/Episcopal Churches - and they're probably moving closer together, not farther apart.
I guess my OP should have been why do people practice religion.
By all means, then, start that topic. Until then, discuss this one. We're still waiting for some substantiation of the claim that differences in Bible interpretation cause all the troubles of the world.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 6:43 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 7:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 65 of 88 (434428)
11-15-2007 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Spektical
11-15-2007 7:02 PM


Re: Is there a point?
You're not paying attention. I have asked you several times to show how Biblical interpretation is responsible for the rise of different sects. Henry VIII and the Church of England clearly does not confirm your claim.
The OP asks:
quote:
where do believers make the distinction between what parts of the bible to take literally and what parts not to, and why?
You need to show that differences between Unitarians and Catholics, for example, are caused by making literal/non-literal distinctions.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 7:02 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 7:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 68 of 88 (434432)
11-15-2007 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Spektical
11-15-2007 7:17 PM


Re: Is there a point?
Spektical writes:
You're the one with the attention problem Ringo...
That's true. I have ADD and dyslexia too - and a touch of OCD.
But nothing in Wikipedia's description of Unitarianism addresses the OP. Show the differences in Biblical interpretation, specifically the distinctions between literal and non-literal interpretation.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 7:17 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 7:28 PM ringo has replied

  
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