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Author Topic:   Where/how do believers draw the line and why?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 88 (433874)
11-13-2007 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Spektical
11-05-2007 1:42 PM


where do believers make the distinction between what parts of the bible to take literally and what parts not to, and why?
Well, there are some parts that are explicitly figurative, parables, poems, songs. In addition, there are some parts that could have been factual but that have been shown not to be, the Flood, the Exodus, the Conquest of Canaan.
But I would like to talk about the parts that are definitely not factual, but that were written as such. These would include many of the descriptions of the world, as seen by the people of that era. For example, the creation myths, or the concept of waters above and below, with a solid firmament between.
Such things were not simply reasonable, many were actually verifiable.
Consider the idea of the waters above and below. People saw it rain. It rained in some areas at some times and in other areas it was not raining. For water to fall, it had to be up there in the first place, but simply lifting water in your cupped hands and spreading your fingers shows that water does not stay up unless supported. So to explain what was seen it was necessary to have some solid material, the firmament, that held the water back, and it needed holes that could be opened and closed like shutters to allow it to rain sometimes and in some places but not always or everywhere.
The same was true of the waters below. If you dug a deep enough hole it would fill with water. In addition, there were places where water came from the ground. For that to happen there would have to be waters below.
The world view worked, it explained what was seen. It happened to be wrong, but it did explain the evidence.
So is there some method for testing the Bible (or any other work for that matter)?
I think so.
First, those things which have been proven false must be acknowledged as false.
That does not mean they are worthless.
The story of Jack and the Bean Stalk, or Gulliver's Travels are false, but neither is worthless. There are lessons that can be learned from them.
Look at the two Creation myths found in Genesis. In the younger story, the one found in Genesis 1 through the first half of Genesis 2:4 we see a Transcendent God, aloof, creating by will alone, but also one that is outside creation yet overarching. In the older creation myths combined into the tales that begins in the second half of Genesis 2:4 we find a totally different image, a different God, one that is intimate and hands on and immersed in the creation. He is somewhat bumbling, unsure, works by trial and error, but is approachable, considerate, personable.
The question really is, what if ALL of the Bible is nothing more than tales told around a campfire? What if not one word of it is actually literally true?
Honestly, I don't think it matters. The Bible speaks of man's relationships with GOD, of GOD's relationships with man and of man's relationships with his fellow man and the universe he lives in. Those lessons can help guide someones life and behavior and thus have value regardless of whether or not they are literally true.
Like anything else, the Bible must be tested using reason, logic and reality.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Spektical, posted 11-05-2007 1:42 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Spektical, posted 11-13-2007 11:19 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 88 (433879)
11-13-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Spektical
11-13-2007 11:19 AM


Topic?
But what is the concept of GOD? what's the reason for it? and don't you think we need a new concept or allow the concept to evolve to something that suits the zeitgeist?
Huh?
What does that have to do with the topic?
The story of the tower of Babel puzzles me. How do christians view it (literally/figuratively)?
This Christian, figuratively.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Spektical, posted 11-13-2007 11:19 AM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Spektical, posted 11-13-2007 11:54 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 88 (433885)
11-13-2007 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Spektical
11-13-2007 11:54 AM


Just So Stories
To understand the story you need to move back a ways. Look at Genesis 10.
What we have is a word picture of the world as known to the authors. The genealogies are likely not so much individuals, but rather clans, and the distribution appears to be clan (city-state? territorial?) arranged from north west to south west.
But while Genesis 10 is laying out the political and cultural geography of the areas, some explanation was needed for the different languages. Genesis 11 is that "Just So Story".
The Bible is filled with "Just So Stories". One in Genesis 1 is "Why we take off one day out of seven". In Genesis 2 we find "Why we need to work for a living instead of just foraging" and "Why childbirth seems harder for humans than other animals" and "Why we fear and hate snakes" and "Why we wear clothes".
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Spektical, posted 11-13-2007 11:54 AM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Spektical, posted 11-13-2007 3:49 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 88 (433921)
11-13-2007 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Spektical
11-13-2007 3:49 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Please actually read Message 11. It has mostly small words.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Spektical, posted 11-13-2007 3:49 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Spektical, posted 11-14-2007 8:24 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 88 (434069)
11-14-2007 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Spektical
11-14-2007 8:24 AM


Re: Just So Stories
I'm sorry you feel that way. However you asked "Where/how do believers draw the line and why?" and in Message 6, Message 9 and Message 11 I have tried to answer at least showing how this believer does so.
If you feel I have not answered your questions, perhaps if you try rewording them I might have a clue what it is you would like to know.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Spektical, posted 11-14-2007 8:24 AM Spektical has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 88 (434115)
11-14-2007 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Spektical
11-14-2007 3:16 PM


Re: Just So Stories
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is more to the tower story than being a 'just so story'.
Okay. Perhaps since you know that you can tell us what more there is?
The question is still unaswered....why do religious people take some stories literally and some not?
Well, I tried to answer that back in Message 6 and again in Message 11.
There are parts that are explicitly figurative.
There are also parts that may have been considered factual at the time when they were written but have since been shown to be wrong. The evidence of reality certainly trumps a late stone age or early bronze age account of nature.
Did you read Message 6 or Message 11?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Spektical, posted 11-14-2007 3:16 PM Spektical has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 88 (434318)
11-15-2007 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Spektical
11-15-2007 11:57 AM


Re: Just So Stories
That's the reason for YOU and the rest of the people who have been brainwashed in early childhood. Its not the reason for ME, and to be close minded about accepting the possibility of other interpretations of ancient stories such as biblical ones is a sin.
Wow, Holy Falsehoods, Nonsense and Shapeshifting rolled into one.
The thread asked why believers accept certain things. Why you accept things is irrelevant.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 11:57 AM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 12:10 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 88 (434323)
11-15-2007 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Spektical
11-15-2007 12:10 PM


Topic
Because "The thread asked why believers accept certain things. Why you accept things is irrelevant." See Message 27.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 12:10 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 12:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 88 (434328)
11-15-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Spektical
11-15-2007 12:30 PM


Re: Topic
That's fine. There is no requirement that you be satisfied with the various responses, only that folk attempt to actually answer the topic of the thread.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 12:30 PM Spektical has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 88 (434333)
11-15-2007 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
11-15-2007 12:26 PM


Re: Just So Stories
Some people believe it really happened and some don't. Since it isn't a very unusual incident, nothing miraculous about it, there's no particular reason to say it didn't.
Actually it is simply part of the description of different political and geographic clans, and part of the defining of a peoples and their places and relationships.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 32 by ringo, posted 11-15-2007 12:26 PM ringo has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 88 (434355)
11-15-2007 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Spektical
11-15-2007 3:35 PM


Is there a point?
You have asked "Where/how do believers draw the line and why? " and at least one believer has answered you.
So is there some point?
Have you read Message 6?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 3:35 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 3:55 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 88 (434362)
11-15-2007 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Spektical
11-15-2007 3:55 PM


Re: Is there a point?
The question is "What is your point?"
The question you ask in the OP, "Where/how do believers draw the line and why?", has been answered. In fact it has been answered several times and by several people.
Is there something more you want?
Do you have a point?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 3:55 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 5:56 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 88 (434386)
11-15-2007 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Spektical
11-15-2007 5:56 PM


Re: Is there a point?
The point is religious people are self-liars.....they lie to themselves.
I suppose you can show how that is related to either the topic or something posted in this thread?
And yes I want more..I want them all to stop lying to themselves and killing people in the process.
I suppose you can show how that is related to either the topic or something posted in this thread?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 5:56 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 6:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 88 (434394)
11-15-2007 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Spektical
11-15-2007 6:17 PM


Re: Is there a point?
Okay.
Yes, there are differences in beliefs.
Do you have a point?
AbE:
some info on Unitarianism that seems to contradict your assertion:
Unitarian Universalists (UUs) believe in complete but responsible freedom of speech, thought, belief, faith, and disposition. They believe that each person is free to search for his or her own personal truth on issues like the existence, nature, and meaning of life, deities, creation, and afterlife. UUs can come from any heritage, have any sexual orientation, and hold beliefs from a variety of cultures or religions.
Concepts about deity are diverse among UUs. Some believe that there is no god (atheism); others believe in many gods (polytheism). Some believe that God is a metaphor for a transcendent reality. Some believe in a female god (goddess), a passive god (Deism), a Christian god, or a god manifested in nature or one which is the "ground of being". Some UUs reject the idea of deities and instead speak of "universal spirit" or "reverence of life". Unitarian Universalists support each person's search for truth and meaning in concepts of deity.
From General Beliefs
Edited by jar, : add entry on UU
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 6:17 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 6:22 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 88 (434402)
11-15-2007 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Spektical
11-15-2007 6:22 PM


Re: Is there a point?
What is your point?
I provided the reasons why I accept parts of the Bible, interpret others and reject some, which was the topic of the thread, and I have never threatened to kill anyone, or in fact attempted to do so.
So again, what is your point?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 6:22 PM Spektical has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Spektical, posted 11-15-2007 6:29 PM jar has not replied

  
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