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Author Topic:   Nova PBS show on Dover ID trial
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1908 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 16 of 42 (434260)
11-15-2007 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by clpMINI
11-13-2007 12:55 PM


Thanks for posting the news about this.

Didn't get the show on this side of the world. The trial itself made news in Asia, though. The general reaction to the Dover School Board's fiasco here was a laughing, head-shaking 'WTF?' before getting on with other business.

A few people asked me how a country that landed on the moon could turn around and show such appalling scientific illiteracy. I had to explain that schools are run differently in the US than in Taiwan and Japan. Here a Ministry of Education at the national level is staffed with experienced teachers who set standards and evaluate schools. American public schools are locally rather than nationally governed, really. The people in charge of the teachers and principals--the school board members--are usually amateurs. Their lack of expertise does not make them shy about flexing, so once in a while you get things like Dover.

I'd appreciate any word about DVDs that become available. Thanks again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by clpMINI, posted 11-13-2007 12:55 PM clpMINI has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Wounded King, posted 11-15-2007 6:27 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded
 Message 18 by EighteenDelta, posted 11-15-2007 7:06 AM Archer Opteryx has responded
 Message 25 by Taz, posted 11-15-2007 11:17 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2405 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 17 of 42 (434270)
11-15-2007 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Archer Opteryx
11-15-2007 4:48 AM


The whole documentary is going to be available online from tomorrow onwards at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html .

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-15-2007 4:48 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

  
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 42 (434275)
11-15-2007 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Archer Opteryx
11-15-2007 4:48 AM


Also remember that one rural town in PA does not represent the whole of the US. I think a lot of people don't realize how big this country is. I remember one time when my wife and I were living in NYC, we met a couple from London who had won a trip to NYC and were there for the weekend. They came with the plan to spend a day in New York, then were going to rent a car and 'check out California'. This was over a 4 day trip. We had to explain to them that its a 3-4 day drive just from New York to California.

So just because a small town in Rural PA had their heads firmly planted up their asses, doesn't mean that the universities that trained our aerospace engineers are teaching 14th century science. Its just an inappropriate generalization. I am not going to pretend that the whole event wasn't an embarassment to begin with or even that it ended very well (remember that the school board was voted out, but only by a close margin)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-15-2007 4:48 AM Archer Opteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18950
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 19 of 42 (434284)
11-15-2007 9:10 AM


Why There's a Controversy
The local reporter featured in the Nova program provided the best reason I ever heard for why there's a controversy over evolution and why it will never go away:

"If you believe in heaven and hell, and if you believe you have to be saved, nothing else could possibly matter, not the first amendment, not science, not rational debate. All that matters is that you're going to be rejoined with the people you love most on this earth."

You can see how this explains the mystifying contortions, rejection of reality and immoral behavior we see so often from creationists. When eternal salvation is at stake, you can justify anything.

About the immoral behavior I mentioned, I wasn't just tossing that in for good measure, I'm thinking of what happened to those whose names came to public attention on the side of evolution. A local science teacher ran for the school board. He's a regular church-goer, and with his wife teaches a summer Bible study class for kids, yet during the campaign his opponent called him an atheist. Comments from a few creationists on the program echoed comments we often hear here, such as that someone who teaches evolution during the week and goes to church on Sunday couldn't possibly be a true Christian.

Those prominently on the evolution side often received threats, in the case of Kitzmiller (lead plaintiff), even a death threat. And after ruling against ID Judge Jones received sufficiently serious threats that he received round-the-clock security. Can anyone in their wildest imagination ever see an evolutionist sending death threats to the school board members who voted for ID, or to Behe, Dembski, Hovind or Ham?

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

Edited by Percy, : Provide an accurate quote of the reporter.


Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 11-15-2007 11:25 AM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 28 by jar, posted 11-15-2007 11:44 AM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 42 by Percy, posted 11-17-2007 9:30 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
StrawberryPatchBug
Junior Member (Idle past 4274 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 08-08-2007


Message 20 of 42 (434294)
11-15-2007 10:08 AM


It's just disgusting how devious and underhanded all of Buckingham and Bonsel's tactics were. In Buckingham's case the fact that he was making fun of the distruction of a students art work should have had him imediatly kicked off the school board.

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2222 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 21 of 42 (434295)
11-15-2007 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by NosyNed
11-14-2007 8:50 PM


Re: Help getting the Nova Show
I have it in mp4 format.

Anyone who wants, just send me a reply and we can make arrangements for you to get it.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by NosyNed, posted 11-14-2007 8:50 PM NosyNed has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by NosyNed, posted 11-15-2007 10:43 AM Jazzns has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8866
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 22 of 42 (434296)
11-15-2007 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jazzns
11-15-2007 10:42 AM


Re: Help getting the Nova Show
I'm replying. If you come to chat I'll give you an email address.

Thanks :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Jazzns, posted 11-15-2007 10:42 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 34 by Jazzns, posted 11-15-2007 10:52 PM NosyNed has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2222 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 23 of 42 (434297)
11-15-2007 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Trixie
11-15-2007 4:11 AM


Re: Transcript?
A lot of it was just a description of the trial. If you read the trial transcripts you would have been familiar with a lot of it. There was some other interviews that were good though. They had most of the trial experts with the exception of Behe who refused to be interviewed.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Trixie, posted 11-15-2007 4:11 AM Trixie has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2222 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 24 of 42 (434298)
11-15-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by NosyNed
11-15-2007 10:43 AM


Re: Help getting the Nova Show
I am unfortunatly unable to join chat with my browser. However you can email me @yahoo.com with my username the same as my avatar here.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by NosyNed, posted 11-15-2007 10:43 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Taz, posted 11-15-2007 11:28 AM Jazzns has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1602 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 25 of 42 (434301)
11-15-2007 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Archer Opteryx
11-15-2007 4:48 AM


One of my friends went to a university in Normal, IL. He told me that in that town a few years back there was an 18 year old who got on the school board. He loudly proclaimed himself as a defender of the faith and a creationist. Somehow, he got elected. That says a lot about the people of that town.

Did I mention this kid came straight out of high school?


Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-15-2007 4:48 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1602 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 26 of 42 (434304)
11-15-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Percy
11-15-2007 9:10 AM


Re: Why There's a Controversy
Percy writes:

Can anyone in their wildest imagination ever see an evolutionist sending death threats to the school board members who voted for ID, or to Behe, Dembski, Hovind or Ham?


Considering the evolution side has a hell of a lot more evil atheists than the creation side, you'd expect more death threats from the evilution side, not the other way around.


Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 11-15-2007 9:10 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1602 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 27 of 42 (434305)
11-15-2007 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jazzns
11-15-2007 10:50 AM


Re: Help getting the Nova Show
I can join chat even when I'm on my linux os. What browser do you use?


Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jazzns, posted 11-15-2007 10:50 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Jazzns, posted 11-15-2007 12:37 PM Taz has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31601
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 28 of 42 (434308)
11-15-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Percy
11-15-2007 9:10 AM


Percy on death threats
Percy writes:

Those prominently on the evolution side often received threats, in the case of Kitzmiller (lead plaintiff), even a death threat. And after ruling against ID Judge Jones received sufficiently serious threats that he received round-the-clock security. Can anyone in their wildest imagination ever see an evolutionist sending death threats to the school board members who voted for ID, or to Behe, Dembski, Hovind or Ham?

But death threats and threats of violence from Biblical Christians really is not that unusual. It has even happened here, both direct threats of violence and also literal death threats. It seems to go back to your initial paraphrase, "If you believe that being saved means you'll one day be united with God and the people you love, then the 1st amendment doesn't matter, science doesn't matter, nothing else matters."

I posted a thread once on the subject, jar - On Christianity and IMHO the underlying issue is that too often they behave as though they really do believe that the End does Justify the Means, even when the end only exists in their fantasies.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 11-15-2007 9:10 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2222 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 29 of 42 (434332)
11-15-2007 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Taz
11-15-2007 11:28 AM


Re: Help getting the Nova Show
browser is links

I am in a text only environment.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Taz, posted 11-15-2007 11:28 AM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 11-15-2007 3:03 PM Jazzns has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31601
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 30 of 42 (434340)
11-15-2007 2:04 PM


More on the book "Of Pandas & People"
P&P is published by "Foundation for Thought and Ethics" (although it is questionable if they can think and it seems that they have no ethics).

The first clear example of the dishonesty of the Foundation for Thought and Ethics (FTE) can be seen in the publisher of the book.

There is a well known publisher of text books named Houghton Mifflin. FTE though chose a small Texas printing company named "Horticultural Printers, Inc." that prints mostly agricultural trade material. However for this book, a Trade Name of "Haughton Publishing Co." was used.

Note the similarity between Houghton and Haughton.

Second, as pointed out in the PBS program, the biggest change between the first and second editions was the wholesale substitution of Intelligent Designer for Creator based on the outcome of Edwards v. Aguillard.

But wait! There's More.

quote:
A forthcoming third edition is to be retitled The Design of Life. Jon Buell, the president of the Foundation for Thought and Ethics, said that the ruling in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District that intelligent design was religious would make the textbook "radioactive" in public schools and would be "catastrophic" for the marketability of both the present (second) edition and the forthcoming third edition, citing possible losses of around half a million dollars. The renaming of the book is viewed by some as way of mitigating this and at the same time distancing the book from past controversy.

So it appears that ethics for the "Foundation for Thought and Ethics" means "doing whatever is necessary to fool gullible people into believing this is an honest effort and not just a conjob to get money."

Read more


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
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