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Author Topic:   Young Know-it-alls
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 72 (434649)
11-16-2007 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Stile
11-16-2007 3:51 PM


Re: In hindsight...
Drew writes
quote:
I sometimes find myself wishing I could be ignorant, deluded and happy rather than analytical, right and depressed.
I've always said that being a human is both a blessing and a curse. Sure, its a blessing because you are endowed with superior intellect to grapple with the great paradoxes of life. Its also a curse for the exact same reason, which in and of itself, is a paradox.
Or perhaps something of more pablum may get my point across better.
"Look at my cat. Why can't I live like that? All other animals except us do nothing else but eat and shit." -Lagwagon
My interpretation of the lyrics: Man, it must be nice to wooed by nothing else but blissful ignorance rather than being plagued by all the world's ills.
I don't see how understanding can be depressing.
Because knowledge means knowing about the facade. I understand what he is saying. I have some spiritual connotations I could add.
If you are referring to something like "I can no longer hope for 100 virgins in the afterlife" or some such fantasy, I still do not find the loss of such a fantasy depressing.
No, that's part of the depressing thought. If heaven is being consumed by earthly pleasures, then their is no point of heaven. Dreaming of earthly pleasures to come in the heavenly realm would be a source of depression for me.
If I were a cat, as the song suggests, it wouldn't matter. But since knowing better, there will always be a source of malcontent for Drewski unless he embraces what he seems to already know his heart of hearts.
And now you've freed the section of your mind fixated on the false-hope.
A false hope is no hope at all.
I find that uplifting. To no longer waste time on something that can never be, and now focus that time on something that is a part of reality.
I'll ask the question that Pilate asked Jesus: "What is Truth® [reality]?
Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : fixed italics

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Stile, posted 11-16-2007 3:51 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 9:04 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Dubious Drewski
Member (Idle past 2531 days)
Posts: 73
From: Alberta
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 47 of 72 (434710)
11-16-2007 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Stile
11-16-2007 3:51 PM


Re: In hindsight...
Stile writes:
why would you consider (appeals to emotion) not foolish?
Not foolish if your goal isn't to convince. Not foolish if all you're after is personal mental health.
Stile writes:
I still do not find the loss of such a fantasy depressing. It's not like you lost something you once had. You never really had it in the first place.
You're not seeing it from the point of view of a "blissfully ignorant" person, but from a person who has already discovered it for the facade it is. It doesn't matter if it was never true in the first place; an ignorant person would never know that, and might remain content.
And NJ, You've understood me nicely. Thank you for elaborating on what I was saying.
Although I don't understand your reply here. It seems counter to the rest of your post:
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
And now you've freed the section of your mind fixated on the false-hope.
A false hope is no hope at all.
A false hope is indistinguishable from a real one for someone who's not in the know, and a person could potentially gain equal happiness from either one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Stile, posted 11-16-2007 3:51 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 9:21 AM Dubious Drewski has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 48 of 72 (435123)
11-19-2007 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hyroglyphx
11-16-2007 5:58 PM


Agreed. Believing in false hope = depressing
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
Man, it must be nice to wooed by nothing else but blissful ignorance rather than being plagued by all the world's ills.
Fair enough. I don't get it, though. It doesn't make sense to me at all. Personally, I find it depressing that someone would want to live a life where their thoughts were wasted on meaningless blissful ignorance.
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
Stile writes:
I don't see how understanding can be depressing.
Because knowledge means knowing about the facade.
Exactly. And that's what I find uplifting. If you have knowledge that something was a facade... isn't it good news that you now know you no longer should be wasting any time on it?
If I were a cat, as the song suggests, it wouldn't matter. But since knowing better, there will always be a source of malcontent for Drewski unless he embraces what he seems to already know his heart of hearts.
Huh. Weird. For me, knowing better means I no longer have to waste time on what is actually worthless. I can now spend my time on things that have real meaning. If Drewski (or anyone else) finds this depressing, sucks to be them, I guess. I don't see how it can be anything but good news.
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
Stile writes:
And now you've freed the section of your mind fixated on the false-hope.
A false hope is no hope at all.
Exactly. It was no hope at all. It was a waste of time to be worrying/thinking about it in the first place. And now we know better. Now we can focus on non-false hopes. I find that to be uplifting. If nothing else, a huge sigh of relief that we're no longer wasting our time on "no hope at all". How is that not good?
I'll ask the question that Pilate asked Jesus: "What is Truth® [reality]?
Don't know (and, for this arguement... don't really care either). If we learn that something was a false hope, therefore "no hope at all" then it's a good thing... we no longer have to waste time on it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-16-2007 5:58 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-29-2007 5:59 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 49 of 72 (435124)
11-19-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Dubious Drewski
11-16-2007 11:28 PM


Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Dubious Drewski writes:
Stile writes:
why would you consider (appeals to emotion) not foolish?
Not foolish if your goal isn't to convince. Not foolish if all you're after is personal mental health.
Are you sure you don't mean personal mental gain? Health is another matter, and appeals to emotion do not lead to personal mental health. They only lead to personal, greedy mental gain. That is, it may certainly feel good (appeal to emotion) to do massive amounts of harsh drugs. It certainly isn't healthy. Health comes from being rational, doing what we know is good. That's the exact opposite of an appeal to emotion.
You're not seeing it from the point of view of a "blissfully ignorant" person, but from a person who has already discovered it for the facade it is. It doesn't matter if it was never true in the first place; an ignorant person would never know that, and might remain content.
Oh, I agree with that. But that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about how depressing it was to understand losing the blissful ignorance. And therefore it's better to keep it. But, as I just showed, it's better to lose that ignorance, because it's cause for even more bliss (and this bliss is even real!) Therefore, we should strive to prove ourselves wrong. That way we'll learn.
So, trading unreal blissful-ignorance for real blissful-knowledge... is an upgrade. How is it better to stay ignorant?
The only way I can understand staying ignorant to be even equivalent with gaining knowledge is if the ignorant no longer functions in the real world in any way. But, since that's kind of... practically impossible... I don't really get it.
Maybe if you gave me an example?
I'll go through my thoughts on the matter with an example:
Blissfully Ignorant Person: Having a great time listening to music from their IPod (with headphones on) while walking on train-tracks.
Blissfully Knowledgeable Person: Having a great time listening to music from their IPod (with headphones on) while walking beside train-tracks.
Now, as long as reality (the train) stays out of this... I understand how they can both be equivalently happy. But add in reality... and the Blissfully Ignorant Person loses rather heavily. Add in the knowledge that the Blissfully Knowledgeable Person has that they certainly are safe beside the train-tracks... and their bliss is even better than the Ignorant's.
Can you show me an example where being blissfully ignorant is better? That is... within reality? By "reality" I mean the place where we all exist where our actions and choices have consequences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Dubious Drewski, posted 11-16-2007 11:28 PM Dubious Drewski has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Taz, posted 11-19-2007 11:58 AM Stile has replied
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 1:16 PM Stile has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 50 of 72 (435141)
11-19-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Stile
11-19-2007 9:21 AM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Stile writes:
Can you show me an example where being blissfully ignorant is better?
Sure thing. If you are a woman who lives during the dark ages, your chance of living a full life without being tortured for witchcraft or heresy increases exponentially with the level of ignorance you are at.
On the other hand, you would live a horrible life if you know certain things. Even if they don't torture you to death for heresy, you'd be forcing yourself to pray to a nonexistant god. Sounds pretty damn terrible to me.
Added by edit.
Just think of the matrix. Would you be happier not knowing it's there or would you be happier it's there but there's not a damn thing you can do about it?
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 9:21 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 1:06 PM Taz has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 51 of 72 (435153)
11-19-2007 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Taz
11-19-2007 11:58 AM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Taz writes:
If you are a woman who lives during the dark ages, your chance of living a full life without being tortured for witchcraft or heresy increases exponentially with the level of ignorance you are at.
I think you have it incredibly backwards. The more ignorant you are, the higher your chance of saying something silly that the wrong person would take to mean you're a part of witchraft or heresy. It's the ignorant who were tortured, they didn't know enough to cope in the lifestyle they were born into.
So, again... being blissfully ignorant is <= being blissfully knowledgeable. Weren't you trying to show the other way around?
On the other hand, you would live a horrible life if you know certain things. Even if they don't torture you to death for heresy, you'd be forcing yourself to pray to a nonexistant god. Sounds pretty damn terrible to me.
What are you talking about? You need to know certain things in order not to be tortured for heresy. You need to know what not to say, and who not to talk to.
Those who were tortured had it done to them because they were ignorant... they didn't know to keep their mouth shut or to fight their battles more wisely.
Just think of the matrix. Would you be happier not knowing it's there or would you be happier it's there but there's not a damn thing you can do about it?
Why is there not a damn thing you can do about it? The whole point of the movie was about the people who were outside of the Matrix, obviously there's plenty I could do about it.
And I would be happier knowing. I could at least then work towards what's real.
The person who wants to stay ignorant wants to lead a meaningless life. This Matrix example of yours shows this very nicely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Taz, posted 11-19-2007 11:58 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Taz, posted 11-19-2007 4:46 PM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 52 of 72 (435154)
11-19-2007 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Stile
11-19-2007 9:21 AM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Stile writes:
Can you show me an example where being blissfully ignorant is better?
From an evolutionary viewpoint, being blissfully ignorant of birth control makes you more likely to pass on your genes. Being ignorant of your children's chances of survival would be pretty blissful too.
The saying is, after all, that ignorance is bliss. You seem to be wanting to extend bliss to areas it was never intended to cover.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 9:21 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 2:13 PM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 53 of 72 (435163)
11-19-2007 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
11-19-2007 1:16 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Ringo writes:
Being ignorant of your children's chances of survival would be pretty blissful too.
Yes, I totally agree.
I'm not arguing that being ignorant isn't blissful. I agree that ignorance is bliss.
I'm arguing that being informed is either equally blissful, or more-so, and not less.
Being ignorant of your children's survival chances is blissful.
So is having knowledge about those chances, and being able to prepare yourself for them.
The knowledgeable bliss has the added confidence that you are prepared. The ignorant bliss has the weakness of a "rude awakening" so to speak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 1:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 2:31 PM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 54 of 72 (435166)
11-19-2007 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Stile
11-19-2007 2:13 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Stile writes:
I'm arguing that being informed is either equally blissful, or more-so, and not less.
Maybe you should be looking for a different word. "Bliss" tends to imply a fairly unrealistic outlook: love-induced, drug-induced, religion-induced, etc. Since happiness is attenuated by reality, a realistic outlook seldom produces "supreme happiness; utter joy or contentment". Dictionary.com

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 2:13 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 4:50 PM ringo has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 55 of 72 (435175)
11-19-2007 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Stile
11-19-2007 1:06 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Stile writes:
I think you have it incredibly backwards. The more ignorant you are, the higher your chance of saying something silly that the wrong person would take to mean you're a part of witchraft or heresy. It's the ignorant who were tortured, they didn't know enough to cope in the lifestyle they were born into.
Did you even stop to think of what I said or were you just responding to win an argument?
Most people that were acused of heresy or witchcraft actually knew something that most ordinary folks didn't. Old midwives that knew of remedies or methods of treating wounds were often the target.
What are you talking about? You need to know certain things in order not to be tortured for heresy. You need to know what not to say, and who not to talk to.
Stile, did you stop to think about what I said or is winning an argument more important than thinking?
The more you know about something, the more likely you'll let it slip out. If you see something that is done to someone that is unjust, there is more of a chance that you will let it slip out than if you thought like the rest of the crowd. And even if you could keep your mouth shut, just imagine the mental anguish you will suffer living your whole life seeing everyone around you doing evil things to innocent people and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it.
So, again... being blissfully ignorant is <= being blissfully knowledgeable. Weren't you trying to show the other way around?
I'm just trying to get you to stop putting so much weight on being the winner and see this from another perspective. Your response to me show me that you didn't even allow a few seconds of thought in my response. All you seemed to care about was someone disagreed with you.
What are you talking about? You need to know certain things in order not to be tortured for heresy. You need to know what not to say, and who not to talk to.
This reminds me of a comedy sit com episode I once saw. Can't think of the name right now.
Anyway, this guy pretends to be mentally retarded to get money from his brother who thought he caused his younger brother to fall off a tree and become stupid. He takes his retarded younger brother to work one day. The boss, which is a complete idiot, can't figure out how a tube goes up in one of those suction funnels. The boss keeps hypothesising that it's magnetism or antigravity. Finally, the younger brother can't stand it anymore and yell out "it's suction you idiot" and then goes on to say "oops, I think I should get a job now".
It's not that easy to keep your mouth shut when you hear someone make an idiotic comment.
Those who were tortured had it done to them because they were ignorant... they didn't know to keep their mouth shut or to fight their battles more wisely.
Again, did you stop to think about this or is winning really that important to you?
Knowing something and knowing to keep your mouth shut are two different things. I know plenty of people who are very knowledgable at various fields but suck at being politically correct.
When I was in college, one time I was at a discussion group. Somehow, the topic of the defeat of the Spanish Armada came up. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing in that room when pretty much everyone agreed with each other that the English fleet was twice as large as the Spanish Armada. I couldn't keep my mouth shut so I corrected them and told them the Spanish Armada was much larger than the English fleet, that the defeat was due to a storm and ingenuity of the English commander. Boy, did they all agree I was an idiot.
I also remember the time when I called the west indies the "west indies". Everyone in the room agreed I was an idiot because supposedly there was no such thing as the west indies.
How about this. Have you ever been to one of those creationist discussion groups and someone decides to be a smartass and "refutes" gravity? The worst one I've ever heard was when someone tried to refute gravity by saying rocks don't orbit mountains like they should be according to gravity.
The point is you could keep your mouth shut if you know you are in danger for letting it slip out. But the more you know and the longer you live, the more likely you'd let something slip out that defies church beliefs, which during the middle ages would have meant heresy.
Why is there not a damn thing you can do about it? The whole point of the movie was about the people who were outside of the Matrix, obviously there's plenty I could do about it.
Ok, I guess I should have been more clear.
The matrix trilogy only take place many centuries after the matrix was first created. You really have to see the whole story to know this. The matrix was created not because the machines needed us as a power source. They could have used fusion for all they cared. It was an attempt to incorporate humanity into their existence because they thought they owed humanity that much (after all they owed their existence to us). For a very long time, and I'm talking about centuries, there was noone on Earth or in Earth that was not in the matrix. Absolutely no chance for freedom from the matrix. And for a very long time (centuries), occasionally there were those that were wise enough to come to realize the existence of the matrix. Most of these individuals lived horrible lives in the matrix because they knew it existed but they also knew they couldn't do a damn thing about it.
These individuals were part of an anomoly in the matrix that the archaetect couldn't get rid of. See, eventually, this knowledge of the matrix would spread to enough people and the anomoly would grow big enough to crash the system, killing everyone connected to the matrix.
The answer was stumbled upon by another program called the oracle who discovered that these individuals who would eventually find out about the existence of the matrix would not cause a problem for the matrix if they were given a choice. This was where the One came in. The One was the ultimate version of the anomoly, one who not only knows of the existence of the matrix but also realized the inner workings of it.
Anyway, sorry for getting sidetracked. The point is for many centuries, noone had a choice to leave or not. There was simply no way to leave the matrix. And in fact, the knowledge of the existence of the matrix ultimately killed billions of people when the system crashed.
And I would be happier knowing. I could at least then work towards what's real.
How? I'm talking about a time period that preceded the events in the trilogy by centuries.
The person who wants to stay ignorant wants to lead a meaningless life. This Matrix example of yours shows this very nicely.
Um, no. The knowledge of the existence of the matrix killed billions of people in the past. This is why the machines decided to let the ones that knew of its existence leave the matrix.
Just remember that the real bad guy in the story of the matrix is the human race. The machine civilization had always been trying to preserve the existence of both races (humanity and machine).
But forget all of that. If you knew that your whole life is nothing but a dream world and that there is absolutely no possibility of you leaving it, you're telling me that you would be happier? If so, why?

Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 1:06 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 5:46 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 65 by Stile, posted 11-21-2007 4:44 PM Taz has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 56 of 72 (435176)
11-19-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
11-19-2007 2:31 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Ringo writes:
a realistic outlook seldom produces "supreme happiness; utter joy or contentment".
Huh. Maybe a realistic outlook just produces more pessimists. I actually do find a realistic outlook to produce "supreme happines; utter joy or contentment". For the reason that with knowledge, comes the confidence that you're getting closer to reality. That is, you can't have "supreme happiness" if your happiness is based on something that is false.
My arguement:
Bliss based on false hopes < Bliss based on not-shown-to-be-false hopes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 2:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 5:43 PM Stile has replied
 Message 62 by Dubious Drewski, posted 11-20-2007 1:48 AM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 57 of 72 (435183)
11-19-2007 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Stile
11-19-2007 4:50 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Stile writes:
I actually do find a realistic outlook to produce "supreme happines; utter joy or contentment".
I don't think you do. I don't think you're experiencing the kind of utter joy or contentment that can only come from being completely oblivious to consequences.
For the reason that with knowledge, comes the confidence that you're getting closer to reality.
Then the word you should be using is "confidence", not "bliss".
That is, you can't have "supreme happiness" if your happiness is based on something that is false.
Of course you can. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as religion.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 4:50 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 5:53 PM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 58 of 72 (435184)
11-19-2007 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Taz
11-19-2007 4:46 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Taz writes:
Most people that were acused of heresy or witchcraft actually knew something that most ordinary folks didn't. Old midwives that knew of remedies or methods of treating wounds were often the target.
True. But what they were ignorant of was what would happen to them if they were caught using those remedies or methods of treating wounds.
If they had the knowledge that treating those wounds in front of soldiers who wanted to throw them in jail and torture them... I'm sure they'd find a way to treat those wounds in another way.
The more you know about something, the more likely you'll let it slip out.
Only if you're ignorant about the dangers. The more you know about the dangers, the less likely you'll let it slip out.
And even if you could keep your mouth shut, just imagine the mental anguish you will suffer living your whole life seeing everyone around you doing evil things to innocent people and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it.
Opening one's mouth immediately isn't the only way to solve problems. And it's knowledge about the alternatives that provides one with the bliss they're searching for and relieves the mental anquish. Not ignorance, it's the ignorance of how to solve the problems that lands you in torture.
Knowing something and knowing to keep your mouth shut are two different things. I know plenty of people who are very knowledgable at various fields but suck at being politically correct.
I wasn't saying it was easy. I was saying it's as blissful as being ignorant. And even more blissful because you know you're safe.
Re-read my walking-on-the-train-tracks example. Where is ignorace better?
Your middle-ages example is exactly the same, only in a different way:
Listening to music with headphones on == doing a healing technique that can get you tortured
Walking on tracks == doing healing technique in front of soldiers who want to tortue you
Walking beside tracks == doing healing technique when soldiers do not learn of you doing it
As long as the soldiers don't find out the two people are equally blissful.
The ignorant person is wide open to being caught in a rude awakening if the soldiers notice.
The knowledgeable person gets the added confidence that the soldiers won't find out.
Again, the knowledgeable bliss >= ignorant bliss.
Yes, sometimes knowledgeable bliss is impossible. Say.. the soldiers have super-powers to detect you at any time or something. This doesn't remove the fact that knowledgeable bliss >= ignorant bliss.
Ignorant bliss can also be impossible (even easier than knowledgeable bliss... another point for knowledgeable bliss). If you have two areas, one where you never get caught and the other you're always safe. The ignorant will eventually be in both rooms and therefore will eventually get caught. The knowledgeable will never get caught.
The point is you could keep your mouth shut if you know you are in danger for letting it slip out. But the more you know and the longer you live, the more likely you'd let something slip out that defies church beliefs, which during the middle ages would have meant heresy.
And.. I have your personal testimony to back this up? The more you know (about how harshly tortured you'd be if caught, and about ways to avoid detection) leads you to be more likely to slip up? That doesn't make sense. Learning more ways to avoid detection makes it less likely to slip up.
Living longer leads to being more likely to slip up? Living longer only provides more time to learn more ways to avoid detection, therefore being less likely to slip up.
Taz writes:
Stile writes:
And I would be happier knowing. I could at least then work towards what's real.
How? I'm talking about a time period that preceded the events in the trilogy by centuries.
Fair enough (after reading your background info).
But, well, it still doesn't make me less blissful. I'd still be happier knowing. At least I'd know more about the reality of my existance. For me, that's bliss. I don't have to waste time thinking "is this real?" or "am I in a Matrix?" I'd know I was in a Matrix. I wouldn't have to spend any more time trying to find out. I could spend that time making Matrix-babies and having a Matrix-family. After all, if it's impossible for me to get out, then that is "reality" to me.
If you knew that your whole life is nothing but a dream world and that there is absolutely no possibility of you leaving it, you're telling me that you would be happier? If so, why?
Yes, whole-heartedly.
For the simple fact that I'd no longer have to waste time figuring it out or pondering over it. I'd know. I can now spend the time pondering and figuring out other things. For instance, if I knew I lived in a dream world, I'd know with 100% accuracy not to waste time going to church. Less wasted time = using the time I have more efficiently to produce more real happiness.
How can I have "real" happiness if my life is a dreamworld?
If my life is a dreamworld.. then that dreamworld is my reality. Therefore, finding happiness within that dreamworld would be "real" happiness.
It would be "supreme" happiness, or in other terms "the best possible kind of happiness available". And because I know my happiness is real, that makes my happiness "closer to supreme" than those who don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Taz, posted 11-19-2007 4:46 PM Taz has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 59 of 72 (435186)
11-19-2007 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ringo
11-19-2007 5:43 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Ringo writes:
Stile writes:
I actually do find a realistic outlook to produce "supreme happines; utter joy or contentment".
I don't think you do.
Fair enough, you're allowed to not take what I say about my own feelings about myself as the truth.
Of course, I like to live in reality, so since I am me, I can take my correct premise and follow through with the conclusion.
If you want to disagree that my premise is incorrect, well, I'm sorry you can't find blissful happiness in reality. To me, understanding reality is the very definition of supreme happiness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 5:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 5:59 PM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 72 (435187)
11-19-2007 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Stile
11-19-2007 5:53 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Stile writes:
I'm sorry you can't find blissful happiness in reality.
What I'm saying is that confidence in reality is much better than bliss. Bliss is empty.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 5:53 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Stile, posted 11-19-2007 7:17 PM ringo has not replied

  
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