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Author Topic:   Creation of the English Language
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 119 of 205 (434483)
11-16-2007 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by IamJoseph
11-15-2007 7:47 PM


Re: History as a Second Language
we can actually trace its emergence, and not so with other languages
Boy, you sure don't read very well, or do research very well.
Links to the histories of all western european languages:
Swedish--Swedish language - Wikipedia
Norwegian--Norwegian language - Wikipedia
Danish--Danish language - Wikipedia
German--German language - Wikipedia
French--French language - Wikipedia
(note that it says 300 million people speak french as either first or second language. that's no small number. In fact, that's the total population (roughly) of the US).
Spanish--Spanish language - Wikipedia
Italian--Italian language - Wikipedia
Portuguese--Portuguese language - Wikipedia
Do I really need to show you more? We know the histories of many, many, many languages.
That english is the only global language today, nicely answers your question it is more pliable.
French is spoken by 300 million people. It is the official language in 29 countries. It is the official language of every UN agency.
Spanish is official language of 18 countries latin america countries, Spain, one country in Africa. It's spoken by at least 300 million native speakers. It is one of the official languages of the UN.
German is spoken my roughly 130 million people, mostly native speakers.
Chinese has over 1 billion native speakers (mandarin over 850 million). It is an official language of the UN, and in my opinion could become one of the new global languages. That is, if you want to survive in the world, you'll need to know it.
English is spoken by up to 1.8 billion people, and is the native tounge of up to 380 million. English is a official language in 53 countries, but many of these have two or more official languages (an example being Pakistan. I highly doubt those in the NWF speak english on a daily basis, but more likely Urdu).
The point is--there are multiple global languages. Further, the reason that english is spoken by so many has more to do with the UK's empire than any 'pliability'. In fact, I highly doubt pliability has anything to do with why english is spoken by up to 1.8 billion people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by IamJoseph, posted 11-15-2007 7:47 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by dwise1, posted 11-16-2007 12:54 AM kuresu has not replied
 Message 128 by IamJoseph, posted 11-16-2007 2:15 AM kuresu has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 126 of 205 (434495)
11-16-2007 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Rrhain
11-16-2007 1:52 AM


Re: An Amusing Scene From Joseph's Microcosm Of Alternative Linguistic History.
you forgot to say . . .
OED.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Rrhain, posted 11-16-2007 1:52 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 135 of 205 (434571)
11-16-2007 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by IamJoseph
11-16-2007 2:15 AM


Re: History as a Second Language
If YOU recall the point of this debate of english, do tell me.
Read the OP.
No one I'm aware of has posited civilizations that are 50 thousand years old. The first civilizations we are aware of all spring up roughly around the same time as Sumer--roughly 6000 years ago. The earliest writings I can find are 8,000 years old (Chinese). There are potentially older writings.
As to the 50K date, you might be thinking of the emergence of culture. Some hypotheses put the emergence of culture at roughly the same time H. sapiens came into being--180,000 or so years ago. One part of culture is language.
Another thing we can use to push the emergence of language further back is agriculture. Agriculture is about 10,000 years old, and requires communication with the people in your tribes. Without communication, it's difficult to grow crops.
Another thing that pushes the date further back is the tribal society. Tribes have existed far longer than civilization. A key part of tribal organization is communication, which requires language.
Now why can we trust those ideas for dating the emergence of language? You say we need physical writing. I don't think so. Tell me, did Beowulf exist before it was transcribed? How about the tales of the native americans, or the aborigines (who are 90,000 or so years old)? To say they didn't is to be idiotic.
despite that all nations were invading nations - english broke that barrier and came up as the worldly language.
Ever heard the phrase "The Sun Never Sets on the British Empire"? The British empire was the largest empire to date, containing over 36 million square kilometers (14 million square miles).
Next, add the commercial power of the US immediately following WWII.
Coinciding with this is the explosion in accessibility to communication. Suddenly, a person in India can relatively easily talk to someone in the US. Further, those on top set the rules of the game, and for the last 200 years, those on top have spoken English.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by IamJoseph, posted 11-16-2007 2:15 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Jon, posted 11-16-2007 2:25 PM kuresu has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 162 of 205 (434818)
11-17-2007 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by IamJoseph
11-17-2007 12:36 PM


Re: Is English really all that different?
We do not know the same about Greek, Indian or Hebrew
Um, ookay.
Greek:
Proto-Greek language - Wikipedia
Greek language - Wikipedia
Indian:
oh wait, which indian language do you mean?
a map of native languages in India:
File:States of South Asia 1.png - Wikipedia
a general source:
Indian languages - Wikipedia
Hebrew:
Hebrew language - Wikipedia
Can you honestly do no research of your own? Something tells me this is impossible bor you. Not only have I found your king from ca 800 c.e. who standardized Old English, but I've also found the histories of all these languages, and these histories include the origins.
That english has a definitive and observable development period
Try telling that to linguists. They will laugh at you. Again, look at the histories I posted for 13 plus languages. We know there development periods, they have definite (as definite as can be) periods of development.
Really, stop pulling this shit out of your ass and do some reading.

This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 164 of 205 (434823)
11-17-2007 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Jon
11-16-2007 2:25 PM


Re: History as a Second Language
In 2003, tentative evidence was found at —/— Jih, an archaeological site in the Hénán province of China, for a still earlier form of Chinese writing. Some symbols were found that bear striking resemblance to certain modern characters, such as m "eye". Since the Jih site dates from about 7000 to 5800 BCE, it predates the earliest confirmed Chinese writing by well over 3,000 years. The nature of this finding”in particular, whether it represents true writing (that is, a general mechanism for expression) or simply proto-writing (which comprises a limited set of symbols)”is still disputed.
Written Chinese - Wikipedia
The big question, it seems, is whether this writing is the direct ancestor of modern chinese. More evidence is needed, but I would say that a form of writing dates back 8,000 years, at least.
Given that we were drawing 30,000 years ago, it's not a stretch to imagine a written language to develop is the need arose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Jon, posted 11-16-2007 2:25 PM Jon has not replied

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 165 of 205 (434826)
11-17-2007 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by IamJoseph
11-17-2007 2:31 PM


Re: Is English really all that different?
The source of german is known, though.
That would be the indo-european language. And even that has an origin hypothesis--proto indo european.
By the way, I highly doubt that anyone proposes that languages derived from grunts of cave people. The biggest reason being is that cave people really didn't exist--they are the popularization of modern culture, not a historical fact (yes, people lived in caves at times, but I highly doubt hunter-gatherers did so on a permament basis). Second, grunts can mean anything, from a morning groan to an expression of pain or discomfort. Linguists and others try to be more precise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2007 2:31 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
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