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Author Topic:   Creation of the English Language
akhenaten
Junior Member (Idle past 5922 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 11-06-2007


Message 118 of 205 (434481)
11-15-2007 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by IamJoseph
11-15-2007 9:04 PM


The King who issued a decree
IAJ, I think we may finally be onto the identity of this mysterious king of yours. That link you gave makes a reference to an event in 1362 during the reign of Edward III. This article here Edward III of England - Wikipedia has very relevant information so I'll quote some of it:
quote:
...the fear of a French invasion helped strengthen a sense of national unity, and nationalise the aristocracy that had been largely Anglo-French since the Norman conquest. Since the time of Edward I, popular myth suggested that the French planned to extinguish the English language, and like his grandfather had done, Edward III made the most of this scare. As a result, the English language experienced a strong revival; in 1362, a statute ordered the English language to be used in law courts and, the year after, Parliament was for the first time opened in English. At the same time, the vernacular saw a revival as a literary language, through the works of William Langland, John Gower and especially Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer.
Yet the extent of this Anglicisation must not be exaggerated. The statute of 1362 was in fact written in the French language and had little immediate effect, and parliament was opened in that language as late as 1377. ... Edward III”himself bilingual”viewed himself as legitimate king of both England and France, and could not show preferential treatment for one part of his domains over another.
Some things to note
1362 is definitely NOT circa 800 by a long shot.
The language at this time would have been MIDDLE ENGLISH. And Middle English would have ALREADY been incorporating French words slowly over time well before this date of 1362. But again, I say, it was during the time of Middle English, not Old English.
Although France and England were by this time engaged in the Hundred Years' War with each other, the idea that the French planned to extinguish the English language was a myth used for political purposes. The French probably had enough to worry about with the war.
All that happened was that a statute in 1362 ordered that English be the language for lawsuits. THAT'S ALL. English for lawsuits. Not an academy, not the formalising of English (English was already there!), and not an important book of law. As the article says, "the extent of this Anglicisation must not be exaggerated. The statute of 1362 was in fact written in the French language and had little immediate effect" (!)
I think some of the others in this thread might even agree that even if this event had not taken place -- if Edward III had not issued this decree about using English -- it would not have meant the extinction of the English language, its position usurped by French. More responsible, probably, for the revival of English in the Establishment was the literary revival of English as mentioned in the quotation above.
Most significantly for your theories, there was no academy or group of scholars, or formalization of the language, or purposeful incorporation of words. The incorporation of words had already been taking place for quite some time, and there was still much change yet to take place (e.g. the Great Vowel Shift of the 1400s)
I want to know if you can admit something? Can you admit that the emergence of English from Anglo-Frisian roots has taken place gradually over a number of centuries (500s - present day)? ("Gradually" means there were changes throughout the time period. A big change one year and then no changes for centuries is not gradual) And can you admit that these changes were not purposefully planned? (What I mean is that was not the intention of people who spoke Old English that the language change to the Modern English we know today.) In other words, can you say that English came about through the slow accumulation of gradual, random, non-directed changes over many centuries?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by IamJoseph, posted 11-15-2007 9:04 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by IamJoseph, posted 11-16-2007 12:57 AM akhenaten has not replied

  
akhenaten
Junior Member (Idle past 5922 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 11-06-2007


Message 133 of 205 (434538)
11-16-2007 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by IamJoseph
11-16-2007 2:15 AM


Re: History as a Second Language
But you did not address at all the argument that kuresu made. In fact, you sidestepped it completely!
You originally said, "we can actually trace [the] emergence [of the English language], and not so with other languages". So you said that we can trace the emergence of English, but we can't trace the emergence of other languages.
Then kuresu countered you saying that, in fact, we can trace the emergence of many other languages. As evidence he presented some of the histories of the other languages. You wrote quite a bit in response, but you never disputed his argument (that we can trace the emergence of other languages) or his evidence.
If you still disagree with his argument then you must address the evidence. Do you think we can't trace the emergence of other languages? Remember you said we can trace the emergence of English. And kuresu presented evidence tracing the emergence of other languages.
Otherwise, if you cannot dispute the evidence, then you have to concede that we can trace the emergence of many other languages just like we can trace the emergence of English. Since this negates some your evidence for the unique "pliability" of English, you may have to reevaluate you claim. (I don't disagree that there are aspects of English that are unique; I disagree with the reasons that you say English is unique)
Oh incidentally, until you can give the exact name or exact year of your "Defender of English" king, then he doesn't exist. Sorry, I know you don't like that, and that you believe that he exists, but it's ridiculous for the rest of us to discuss something without a shred of evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by IamJoseph, posted 11-16-2007 2:15 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
akhenaten
Junior Member (Idle past 5922 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 11-06-2007


Message 158 of 205 (434787)
11-17-2007 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by IamJoseph
11-17-2007 3:52 AM


Re: Is English really all that different?
IAJ writes:
We can trace english's emergence, because this is observable from a certain period, and did not exist before then.
Oh no, not this again.
It is true that we can trace English's emergence. We can similarly trace the emergence of many other languages, and evidence was presented to support that.
It is not true that there is any period in history that marks a point before which English does not exist, and after which English exists. Old English emerged slowly and gradually from Anglo-Frisian roots, Middle English emerged slowly and gradually from Old English with added French-Norman words, and Early Modern English emerged the same way from Middle English. The Anglo-Frisian precursor would have itself emerged slowly and gradually from something else.
English emerged gradually, just like autumn emerges gradually without a clear defninite break from summer.
If you disagree, if you think that there was a point in history that marked a clear definite break when English came to be, then you must present the evidence -- not just a suggestion of something you remember.
Otherwise you should concede that English emerged gradually, just as many other languages did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2007 3:52 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2007 12:36 PM akhenaten has replied

  
akhenaten
Junior Member (Idle past 5922 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 11-06-2007


Message 160 of 205 (434814)
11-17-2007 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by IamJoseph
11-17-2007 12:36 PM


Re: Is English really all that different?
IAJ writes:
We do not know the same about Greek, Indian or Hebrew - these were outside of observable history: their origins are mysterious and untraceable.
What about French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish. etc.? (All of these histories were referred to by kuresu in his earlier post)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2007 12:36 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2007 2:31 PM akhenaten has not replied

  
akhenaten
Junior Member (Idle past 5922 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 11-06-2007


Message 180 of 205 (434904)
11-17-2007 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Jon
11-17-2007 10:38 PM


Re: Please, try yet again...
AgamemJon writes:
Why don't you start debating like a grown up instead of a little toddler?
I have a toddler of my own (I'm many years removed from my university days), and I believe he's got a better grasp of reasoned argumentation than IAJ does.
Maybe the Admin is right. Perhaps we're the fools for debating this guy. What's despairing is that sometimes there are one or two kernels of truth in his posts mixed in with the most ridiculous generalizations this side of Archie Bunker. The discussion is going nowhere and probably can't.
Joseph, I did get you to admit that the English language arose from the accumulation of slow, gradual, random, non-directed changes. I would hope that this might cause you to reconsider the evolution of species, but if not, or if you choose to deny my claims, I won't be surprised.
Some of the contributions by some of you, especially those of you who seem very familiar with languages, were great. Apart from its relevance to discussions of evolutionary science, I find the topic of languages to be fascinating, so thanks again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Jon, posted 11-17-2007 10:38 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2007 11:16 PM akhenaten has not replied

  
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