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Author Topic:   Young Know-it-alls
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 45 of 72 (434628)
11-16-2007 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dubious Drewski
11-16-2007 11:27 AM


Re: In hindsight...
Dubious Drewski writes:
was pretty arrogant in this thread, and not one of you called me out on it? Tsk tsk!
You padded the arrogance with just enough personal introspection.
I'm starting to see why some people choose to disbelieve in materialism and secularism. Sure, it's the truth, but it sure isn't uplifting! Appeals to emotion don't seem so foolish after all.
Maybe not The Truth, but at least the best we have so far. I can see the subjective ignorant attraction for appeals to emotion. They certainly feel good. But why would you consider them not foolish?
I sometimes find myself wishing I could be ignorant, deluded and happy rather than analytical, right and depressed.
I'm not sure your statement should be taken extremely literally, being analytical doesn't always lead to being right. But, in staying within the idea of the expression... why does it depress you?
I don't see how understanding can be depressing.
If you are referring to something like "I can no longer hope for 100 virgins in the afterlife" or some such fantasy, I still do not find the loss of such a fantasy depressing. It's not like you lost something you once had. You never really had it in the first place. And now you've freed the section of your mind fixated on the false-hope. That area can now be utilized to focus and hope for something that still has a chance of being real.
I find that uplifting. To no longer waste time on something that can never be, and now focus that time on something that is a part of reality.
I ask again... where does the depression come from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dubious Drewski, posted 11-16-2007 11:27 AM Dubious Drewski has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-16-2007 5:58 PM Stile has replied
 Message 47 by Dubious Drewski, posted 11-16-2007 11:28 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 48 of 72 (435123)
11-19-2007 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hyroglyphx
11-16-2007 5:58 PM


Agreed. Believing in false hope = depressing
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
Man, it must be nice to wooed by nothing else but blissful ignorance rather than being plagued by all the world's ills.
Fair enough. I don't get it, though. It doesn't make sense to me at all. Personally, I find it depressing that someone would want to live a life where their thoughts were wasted on meaningless blissful ignorance.
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
Stile writes:
I don't see how understanding can be depressing.
Because knowledge means knowing about the facade.
Exactly. And that's what I find uplifting. If you have knowledge that something was a facade... isn't it good news that you now know you no longer should be wasting any time on it?
If I were a cat, as the song suggests, it wouldn't matter. But since knowing better, there will always be a source of malcontent for Drewski unless he embraces what he seems to already know his heart of hearts.
Huh. Weird. For me, knowing better means I no longer have to waste time on what is actually worthless. I can now spend my time on things that have real meaning. If Drewski (or anyone else) finds this depressing, sucks to be them, I guess. I don't see how it can be anything but good news.
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
Stile writes:
And now you've freed the section of your mind fixated on the false-hope.
A false hope is no hope at all.
Exactly. It was no hope at all. It was a waste of time to be worrying/thinking about it in the first place. And now we know better. Now we can focus on non-false hopes. I find that to be uplifting. If nothing else, a huge sigh of relief that we're no longer wasting our time on "no hope at all". How is that not good?
I'll ask the question that Pilate asked Jesus: "What is Truth® [reality]?
Don't know (and, for this arguement... don't really care either). If we learn that something was a false hope, therefore "no hope at all" then it's a good thing... we no longer have to waste time on it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-16-2007 5:58 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-29-2007 5:59 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 49 of 72 (435124)
11-19-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Dubious Drewski
11-16-2007 11:28 PM


Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Dubious Drewski writes:
Stile writes:
why would you consider (appeals to emotion) not foolish?
Not foolish if your goal isn't to convince. Not foolish if all you're after is personal mental health.
Are you sure you don't mean personal mental gain? Health is another matter, and appeals to emotion do not lead to personal mental health. They only lead to personal, greedy mental gain. That is, it may certainly feel good (appeal to emotion) to do massive amounts of harsh drugs. It certainly isn't healthy. Health comes from being rational, doing what we know is good. That's the exact opposite of an appeal to emotion.
You're not seeing it from the point of view of a "blissfully ignorant" person, but from a person who has already discovered it for the facade it is. It doesn't matter if it was never true in the first place; an ignorant person would never know that, and might remain content.
Oh, I agree with that. But that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about how depressing it was to understand losing the blissful ignorance. And therefore it's better to keep it. But, as I just showed, it's better to lose that ignorance, because it's cause for even more bliss (and this bliss is even real!) Therefore, we should strive to prove ourselves wrong. That way we'll learn.
So, trading unreal blissful-ignorance for real blissful-knowledge... is an upgrade. How is it better to stay ignorant?
The only way I can understand staying ignorant to be even equivalent with gaining knowledge is if the ignorant no longer functions in the real world in any way. But, since that's kind of... practically impossible... I don't really get it.
Maybe if you gave me an example?
I'll go through my thoughts on the matter with an example:
Blissfully Ignorant Person: Having a great time listening to music from their IPod (with headphones on) while walking on train-tracks.
Blissfully Knowledgeable Person: Having a great time listening to music from their IPod (with headphones on) while walking beside train-tracks.
Now, as long as reality (the train) stays out of this... I understand how they can both be equivalently happy. But add in reality... and the Blissfully Ignorant Person loses rather heavily. Add in the knowledge that the Blissfully Knowledgeable Person has that they certainly are safe beside the train-tracks... and their bliss is even better than the Ignorant's.
Can you show me an example where being blissfully ignorant is better? That is... within reality? By "reality" I mean the place where we all exist where our actions and choices have consequences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Dubious Drewski, posted 11-16-2007 11:28 PM Dubious Drewski has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Taz, posted 11-19-2007 11:58 AM Stile has replied
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 1:16 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 51 of 72 (435153)
11-19-2007 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Taz
11-19-2007 11:58 AM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Taz writes:
If you are a woman who lives during the dark ages, your chance of living a full life without being tortured for witchcraft or heresy increases exponentially with the level of ignorance you are at.
I think you have it incredibly backwards. The more ignorant you are, the higher your chance of saying something silly that the wrong person would take to mean you're a part of witchraft or heresy. It's the ignorant who were tortured, they didn't know enough to cope in the lifestyle they were born into.
So, again... being blissfully ignorant is <= being blissfully knowledgeable. Weren't you trying to show the other way around?
On the other hand, you would live a horrible life if you know certain things. Even if they don't torture you to death for heresy, you'd be forcing yourself to pray to a nonexistant god. Sounds pretty damn terrible to me.
What are you talking about? You need to know certain things in order not to be tortured for heresy. You need to know what not to say, and who not to talk to.
Those who were tortured had it done to them because they were ignorant... they didn't know to keep their mouth shut or to fight their battles more wisely.
Just think of the matrix. Would you be happier not knowing it's there or would you be happier it's there but there's not a damn thing you can do about it?
Why is there not a damn thing you can do about it? The whole point of the movie was about the people who were outside of the Matrix, obviously there's plenty I could do about it.
And I would be happier knowing. I could at least then work towards what's real.
The person who wants to stay ignorant wants to lead a meaningless life. This Matrix example of yours shows this very nicely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Taz, posted 11-19-2007 11:58 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Taz, posted 11-19-2007 4:46 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 53 of 72 (435163)
11-19-2007 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
11-19-2007 1:16 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Ringo writes:
Being ignorant of your children's chances of survival would be pretty blissful too.
Yes, I totally agree.
I'm not arguing that being ignorant isn't blissful. I agree that ignorance is bliss.
I'm arguing that being informed is either equally blissful, or more-so, and not less.
Being ignorant of your children's survival chances is blissful.
So is having knowledge about those chances, and being able to prepare yourself for them.
The knowledgeable bliss has the added confidence that you are prepared. The ignorant bliss has the weakness of a "rude awakening" so to speak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 1:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 2:31 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 56 of 72 (435176)
11-19-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
11-19-2007 2:31 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Ringo writes:
a realistic outlook seldom produces "supreme happiness; utter joy or contentment".
Huh. Maybe a realistic outlook just produces more pessimists. I actually do find a realistic outlook to produce "supreme happines; utter joy or contentment". For the reason that with knowledge, comes the confidence that you're getting closer to reality. That is, you can't have "supreme happiness" if your happiness is based on something that is false.
My arguement:
Bliss based on false hopes < Bliss based on not-shown-to-be-false hopes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 2:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 5:43 PM Stile has replied
 Message 62 by Dubious Drewski, posted 11-20-2007 1:48 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 58 of 72 (435184)
11-19-2007 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Taz
11-19-2007 4:46 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Taz writes:
Most people that were acused of heresy or witchcraft actually knew something that most ordinary folks didn't. Old midwives that knew of remedies or methods of treating wounds were often the target.
True. But what they were ignorant of was what would happen to them if they were caught using those remedies or methods of treating wounds.
If they had the knowledge that treating those wounds in front of soldiers who wanted to throw them in jail and torture them... I'm sure they'd find a way to treat those wounds in another way.
The more you know about something, the more likely you'll let it slip out.
Only if you're ignorant about the dangers. The more you know about the dangers, the less likely you'll let it slip out.
And even if you could keep your mouth shut, just imagine the mental anguish you will suffer living your whole life seeing everyone around you doing evil things to innocent people and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it.
Opening one's mouth immediately isn't the only way to solve problems. And it's knowledge about the alternatives that provides one with the bliss they're searching for and relieves the mental anquish. Not ignorance, it's the ignorance of how to solve the problems that lands you in torture.
Knowing something and knowing to keep your mouth shut are two different things. I know plenty of people who are very knowledgable at various fields but suck at being politically correct.
I wasn't saying it was easy. I was saying it's as blissful as being ignorant. And even more blissful because you know you're safe.
Re-read my walking-on-the-train-tracks example. Where is ignorace better?
Your middle-ages example is exactly the same, only in a different way:
Listening to music with headphones on == doing a healing technique that can get you tortured
Walking on tracks == doing healing technique in front of soldiers who want to tortue you
Walking beside tracks == doing healing technique when soldiers do not learn of you doing it
As long as the soldiers don't find out the two people are equally blissful.
The ignorant person is wide open to being caught in a rude awakening if the soldiers notice.
The knowledgeable person gets the added confidence that the soldiers won't find out.
Again, the knowledgeable bliss >= ignorant bliss.
Yes, sometimes knowledgeable bliss is impossible. Say.. the soldiers have super-powers to detect you at any time or something. This doesn't remove the fact that knowledgeable bliss >= ignorant bliss.
Ignorant bliss can also be impossible (even easier than knowledgeable bliss... another point for knowledgeable bliss). If you have two areas, one where you never get caught and the other you're always safe. The ignorant will eventually be in both rooms and therefore will eventually get caught. The knowledgeable will never get caught.
The point is you could keep your mouth shut if you know you are in danger for letting it slip out. But the more you know and the longer you live, the more likely you'd let something slip out that defies church beliefs, which during the middle ages would have meant heresy.
And.. I have your personal testimony to back this up? The more you know (about how harshly tortured you'd be if caught, and about ways to avoid detection) leads you to be more likely to slip up? That doesn't make sense. Learning more ways to avoid detection makes it less likely to slip up.
Living longer leads to being more likely to slip up? Living longer only provides more time to learn more ways to avoid detection, therefore being less likely to slip up.
Taz writes:
Stile writes:
And I would be happier knowing. I could at least then work towards what's real.
How? I'm talking about a time period that preceded the events in the trilogy by centuries.
Fair enough (after reading your background info).
But, well, it still doesn't make me less blissful. I'd still be happier knowing. At least I'd know more about the reality of my existance. For me, that's bliss. I don't have to waste time thinking "is this real?" or "am I in a Matrix?" I'd know I was in a Matrix. I wouldn't have to spend any more time trying to find out. I could spend that time making Matrix-babies and having a Matrix-family. After all, if it's impossible for me to get out, then that is "reality" to me.
If you knew that your whole life is nothing but a dream world and that there is absolutely no possibility of you leaving it, you're telling me that you would be happier? If so, why?
Yes, whole-heartedly.
For the simple fact that I'd no longer have to waste time figuring it out or pondering over it. I'd know. I can now spend the time pondering and figuring out other things. For instance, if I knew I lived in a dream world, I'd know with 100% accuracy not to waste time going to church. Less wasted time = using the time I have more efficiently to produce more real happiness.
How can I have "real" happiness if my life is a dreamworld?
If my life is a dreamworld.. then that dreamworld is my reality. Therefore, finding happiness within that dreamworld would be "real" happiness.
It would be "supreme" happiness, or in other terms "the best possible kind of happiness available". And because I know my happiness is real, that makes my happiness "closer to supreme" than those who don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Taz, posted 11-19-2007 4:46 PM Taz has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 59 of 72 (435186)
11-19-2007 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ringo
11-19-2007 5:43 PM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Ringo writes:
Stile writes:
I actually do find a realistic outlook to produce "supreme happines; utter joy or contentment".
I don't think you do.
Fair enough, you're allowed to not take what I say about my own feelings about myself as the truth.
Of course, I like to live in reality, so since I am me, I can take my correct premise and follow through with the conclusion.
If you want to disagree that my premise is incorrect, well, I'm sorry you can't find blissful happiness in reality. To me, understanding reality is the very definition of supreme happiness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 5:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 5:59 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 61 of 72 (435201)
11-19-2007 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by ringo
11-19-2007 5:59 PM


Blissfully Agreed
Yes, maybe I am just using the wrong words.
I don't know, "Bliss is empty" doesn't sit perfectly well with me. But at this point, I don't really disagree at all. Thanks for your input

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 11-19-2007 5:59 PM ringo has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 64 of 72 (435328)
11-20-2007 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dubious Drewski
11-20-2007 1:48 AM


Re: Blissfully Ignorant <= Blissfully Knowledgeable
Dubious Drewski writes:
What I'm trying to point out is that it is easier for an ignorant/deluded person to be happy. Real happiness based on truth is rarer, and is the tougher of the two paths.
Sounds good to me
Although I think the rare part simply has to do more with a pessimistic/optimistic attitude rather than happiness available to the situation. "Happiness available to the situation"... um... I hope that makes a bit of sense, I don't really know how to explain that more, and, well, I don't really feel like it either

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dubious Drewski, posted 11-20-2007 1:48 AM Dubious Drewski has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 65 of 72 (435573)
11-21-2007 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Taz
11-19-2007 4:46 PM


Thanks
Taz writes:
Stile, did you stop to think about what I said or is winning an argument more important than thinking?
I've never cared about winning or losing an arguement, only about simply being understood.
I'll take your silence to my last message to mean you understand what I was talking about now, thanks for your input.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Taz, posted 11-19-2007 4:46 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Taz, posted 11-29-2007 12:05 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 68 of 72 (437465)
11-30-2007 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hyroglyphx
11-29-2007 5:59 PM


Re: Progressing towards better
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
If one is blissfully ignorant, you would not know that you are ignorant. So what does it matter? Why not opt to be the cat if that's the case?
Ignorance is damaging. Those who are unaware of dangers tend not to live very long.
But I agree with you, if "being happy" is your only goal. That is, living is irrelevant... other people are irrelevant... this universe is irrelevant... I see no reason why blissful ignorance wouldn't be the path you'd want.
My point was that blissful ignorance isn't any better than blissful knowledge. I've admitted many times that they're at least equal.
Personally, I wouldn't want to be a cat because simple ignorant bliss is not a goal of mine. Happiness, truth, pursuit of life, curiosity... all these things drive me.
You would prefer knowing the truth, presumably, even if the truth hurt more than the fictional lives we once were under.
Truth can hurt? I'd say that some people's reactions to truth can be hurtful. But I like truth, no matter what it is. Besides, truth is reality, without knowing it, you're simply living in a delusion. That's not very happy at all to me.
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
Stile writes:
Weird. For me, knowing better means I no longer have to waste time on what is actually worthless.
Again, that presupposes a goal. What is the goal?
I have no idea. But, if I can identify goals that are fake, I certainly will discard them.
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
Stile writes:
I can now spend my time on things that have real meaning.
What do you suppose has real meaning?
Don't know. But if I find out that something certainly doesn't have real meaning, it's certainly a waste of time to continue any venture in that direction. This is my plan, to find what does have real meaning. The only way to get closer is to discard those ideas that are shown to be hollow, useless, and fake.
Does the fly worry about when it is going to eat? Does it have the intellect to feel sorry for itself when it is hungry? Does it calculate its moves, or does it rely on baser instincts?
Doesn't matter. I cannot choose to be a fly. I am human. I can choose to be ignorant, or I can choose to try and learn. Learning gives greater happiness (to me, anyway) ALWAYS. Therefore that's what I do.
I think he is saying that while knowledge can be a blessing, it can also be a curse.
Yeah, I think he's saying that too. I certainly can't argue that this is wrong for him. All I'm saying is that this certainly isn't universal, and is definitely the opposite for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-29-2007 5:59 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2007 11:29 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 70 of 72 (437568)
11-30-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
11-30-2007 11:29 AM


Re: Progressing towards better
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
If you had the ability to know when and how you would die, would you opt to know or not?
I would want to know. That way I could make sure all my loved ones are taken care of. I wouldn't waste any resources for "if I might need it when I'm older". My life would be much, much happier. Knowing I'm down-right invincible up to a certain date would be awesome. And, since I'm dying that day whether I know it or not, I'd want to make sure I knew so I could use the time I did have as wisely and efficiently as possible. Not knowing would mean I'd be making plans for being alive when I'm actually going to be dead. That's just poor resource management.
And yes, it sometimes can hurt. For instance, say you had a bulge in your abdomen. You are thinking, great, another hernia. You are thinking its a minor inconvenience. You go to get an MRI and discover that its actually a tumor the size of a tennis ball.
Again, that truth wouldn't hurt me. In fact, I'd really want to know it as soon as possible. If I have a tumor (any size) in me, I want to know about it. It's there whether or not I know about it. If I do know about it, I can fix it (possibly). Or at least be fully prepared for death, as in the above case.
Ah, but don't you supply meaning to your own microcosm?
I don't know. I certainly am capable of supplying meaning to my own microcosm. Whether or not that's the only way... I'm not sure we can know. But this doesn't change the fact that if I can determine some false-path for meaning, then I want to know about it so I can stop wasting time with it.
If meaning exists beyond the self, then what supplies the meaning?
Don't know, and don't really care. It has no effect on the fact that if I uncover that something is false, I don't want to waste time on it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2007 11:29 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2007 5:39 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 72 of 72 (438172)
12-03-2007 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Hyroglyphx
11-30-2007 5:39 PM


I want to know, always
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
I suppose it would have its perks (knowing when and where you would die), but I'm sure there are drawbacks, like knowing how you would die but don't know when.
Not for me. Not a single drawback. Don't fall into the trap that everyone feels the same way you do about things.
And then of course, you might always question whether or not you actually know the day you are going to die.
Nope, not me. If I was questioning if I "actually" knew in the least little bit, I'd be in the exact same position I'm in now. And would live my life exactly the same. Then I wouldn't really "know" when and where I was going to die. I'd want to know, if that's even possible.
If you knew the manner you would, like a car accident, would you constantly be living in fear? Is today the day? It might be maddening, in which case, you aren't living life as it comes, but fearful of the expectation of death.
Not for me. I've made my peace with death long ago. It's inevitable. It's going to happen. Even if I knew the manner but not the time, there certainly would not be any fear, no "is today the day", no expectation of death. I'd still want to know, though.
What about your beloved wife cheating on you? Don't you think that truth might hurt? Sure, you would want to know the truth, but it would still hurt.
I'd still want to know, as soon as possible. Because, obviously, if she's cheating on me she's not "my beloved" at all, is she? I'd want to know as soon as possible so I could get out of the relationship and move on to finding my real beloved.
In fact, this example illustrates my point perfectly. Who'd want a delusional relationship? I'd want to know about this as soon as possible. Then I'd know I was wasting my time fussing over a false-hood. With that knowledge, I could get out of the fake-relationship and move on to finding a real one, with real benefits from real love.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2007 5:39 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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