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Author Topic:   How to explain disbelief in the all-important Bible?
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 5 of 59 (435282)
11-20-2007 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Am5n
11-20-2007 6:39 AM


Amen writes:
The Bible has become a very important book...
You could have substituted the word "Koran" (or Qur'an) for the word "Bible" in your post, and then tried to answer your own question.
By a lot of people, the bible is considered not important, just a fantasy.
That's very badly worded. Not believing that the Bible is the word of God is not the same as not considering it important. The Bible is automatically important because of the large number of Christians in the world and their influence. The earlier English translations are also very important in the history of our language.
The phrase "just a fantasy" is bad, as the Bible relates some true history amongst its myths. It is a mixture of fantasy and fact to non-Christians like me.
If it's not important, why go through all the trouble to have it in every country?
If there are people who believe it's "not important", it's hardly likely that those people have gone to the trouble of trying to put it in every country, is it? It was spread to "every country" by people who believed it was important.
If lots of people believe that a book is the word of God, then that book becomes important, regardless of the veracity of the belief. Bible or Koran or anything else.
I think you need to rephrase or clarify your O.P.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 6 of 59 (435283)
11-20-2007 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by nator
11-20-2007 7:25 AM


nator writes:
That in no way indicates that it actually is important, only that some people think it is.
Amen's use of the word "important" is probably confusing. He uses it to mean "important" (which the Bible is) but also when he probably means to say "all true" or "the word of God" or "magic" or something else.
It's a bad O.P.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 12 of 59 (435294)
11-20-2007 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by PaulK
11-20-2007 7:43 AM


The Qu'ran is more important than the Bible on that score - it's so important that you shouldn't rely on translations. You should learn Arabic just so you can read it in the original language. Or at least that is what Muslims believe. And that is what they do.
But do they? Most Muslims do not understand Arabic, classical or modern. And most Muslims do not know much about the contents of the Qur'an, just as most Christians haven't actually read the Bible. It's a bit like when the Bible was only available in Latin.
It's better that way for the religion, because too many people thinking about the contradictions and silliness of their Holy books tends to lead to this thing called "doubt".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 11-20-2007 7:43 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-20-2007 10:40 AM bluegenes has replied
 Message 28 by PaulK, posted 11-20-2007 1:59 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 13 of 59 (435296)
11-20-2007 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by pelican
11-20-2007 7:49 AM


Heinrik writes:
The majority may believe but it doesn't always make it true.
Just a technical point. The majority of people do not believe in the Christian God, or that the Bible is "true" or the word of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by pelican, posted 11-20-2007 7:49 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by pelican, posted 11-20-2007 5:27 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 29 of 59 (435377)
11-20-2007 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by PaulK
11-20-2007 1:59 PM


Certainly, Paul. But that wasn't what you said in the post I replied to.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 30 of 59 (435394)
11-20-2007 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by macaroniandcheese
11-20-2007 10:40 AM


brennakimi writes:
bluegenes writes:
Most Muslims do not understand Arabic, classical or modern.
i think you'll need to demonstrate this.
I'll be off topic in doing so, but briefly, about 1,200,000,000 of the 1,500,000,000 are not native Arabic speakers, so that's why most don't understand any of the modern Arabic dialects.
Then, rates of illiteracy are still high in some of the countries with the largest Muslim populations. Then, even amongst the literate, most aren't devout enough to actually learn to properly understand a dead language (classical Arabic).
This is partly because of the bluegenes first law of religion, which is that if you actually read the scriptures of any religion, and then read one good book on the history and theology of that religion, you'll know more about the religion than most of its "followers".
I've tried this theory out on Muslims in several different predominately Muslim countries (and on Hindus in India), and it works.
Getting closer to the topic, you could try my theory out in your own supposedly Bible loving country. If you asked people on the street whether or not they're Christians, then, to those who say yes, ask something like "can you name the twelve apostles", or "how many Old Testament prophets can you name", I think the results would show that most "Christians" don't know their scriptures very well at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-20-2007 10:40 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-20-2007 5:39 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 34 of 59 (435404)
11-20-2007 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by macaroniandcheese
11-20-2007 5:39 PM


brenna writes:
all the muslims i know speak arabic as well because they learned it (either as children or adults) in order to be able to read the qu'ran and sunna. it may not be their first language, but it certainly is one they speak.
But, if the Muslims you know were typical of the hundreds of millions on the Indian subcontinent, about half of them would never have read anything in any language. Also, a lot of my parents' generation here "learned" Latin in school, but few ever could be described as understanding it.
Sorry about the off-topic stuff, Amen.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 36 of 59 (435406)
11-20-2007 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by pelican
11-20-2007 5:27 PM


Heinrik writes:
How do you know this?
How do I know that the majority of people in the world aren't Christians? Can't we just take their word for it?
Also how does a christian god differ from the one god professed by many religions?
I think it's something to do with coming to earth himself, as his son, to save us around 2000 years ago, plus numerous other details.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by pelican, posted 11-20-2007 5:27 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by pelican, posted 11-20-2007 11:31 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 40 of 59 (435410)
11-20-2007 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by pelican
11-20-2007 6:29 PM


Heinrik writes:
I wonder if the bible was not believed to be inspired by god and taken as a literary novel, would it be a best seller?
In many cultures during most epochs, it wouldn't have got past the censors. Too much sex, and far too much violence.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 52 of 59 (435477)
11-21-2007 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by pelican
11-20-2007 11:31 PM


Heinrik writes:
I don't know. How many people have you asked? I thought you were stating it as a known fact.
Plenty of surveys have been done. All, however they're done and whoever by, come up with Christians as being less than a third of the world's population. Islam and Hinduism combined have more followers than Christianity. Then there's all the rest.
I was "stating it as a known fact".
It is a well known fact (outside your village )
P.S. The quote boxes are a great feature of this site, don't you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by pelican, posted 11-20-2007 11:31 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by pelican, posted 11-21-2007 8:49 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 55 of 59 (435507)
11-21-2007 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by pelican
11-21-2007 8:49 AM


Heinrik writes:
Did you see post 41?
Yes, and I've known the website that it links to for a long time.
Why do you ask?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by pelican, posted 11-21-2007 8:49 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by pelican, posted 11-21-2007 10:17 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 57 of 59 (435512)
11-21-2007 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by pelican
11-21-2007 10:17 AM


Heinrik writes:
I asked because you said, ""How do I know that the majority of people in the world aren't Christians? Can't we just take their word for it?" and it seemed you didn't know the answer.
Surveys like that rely on people's self-descriptions, which is what I meant by taking their word for it. I was assuming that you would know that surveys on who believes what do take place.
The initial point I was making in response to the original post was that 'belief in anything does not make it true, no matter if it is believed by the majority'. Given the statistics in post 41, billions believe in a god that they do not know, that they have no experience of and those who claim to, experience god only from within, including jesus.
No problem. What I picked up on was a phrase which suggested that most people were Christians, that's all. I was just making a technical correction.
It is the minority who make these claims of a real god through personal experience and they are believed by a majority who really haven't a clue. This imaginary god that is unique to each individual is causing huge divisions within the human race. It seems to me that the belief in a religious god has been proved to be false.
I agree with your "huge divisions" point, but another slight technical suggestion. The belief in the existence of a God of some kind has not been proven false. I say this without prejudice, as an atheist. Fairies, incidentally, haven't been proven to be non-existent either.
The time is coming when we shall not attribute the good things in life to god and the bad things to the devil. We will take responsibility for our own creations, experiences, humanity and the world. Amen to that!
Amen to that, indeed, although I won't live to see the day when the majority of the world will tick the "no religion" box in these surveys mentioned above. In Europe, maybe, but not world-wide for a while yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by pelican, posted 11-21-2007 10:17 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by pelican, posted 11-21-2007 6:02 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
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