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Author Topic:   Discussing the evidence that support creationism
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 136 of 301 (435764)
11-22-2007 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by theLimmitt
11-22-2007 3:44 PM


You can also consider what happens in reverse: have a child run and jump\climb onto the merry-go-round. The spinning of the merry-go-round is not due to the spin of the child before getting on board, nor does the child counter-rotate to face their original direction once on board.
Here's Hovind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgcq2RDnE2s
So (1) when did "football players" ever run 60 mph (or even 30 mph)? (2) if the football player lets go of the merry-go-round, would they spin? and (3) how can you tell if a galaxy is "spinning backwards"? Look at the other side?
And we have whole auditoriums full of gullible people that believe this nonsense. What other falsehoods are they incapable of seeing.
This is really pretty sad eh?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : good for a laugh.
Edited by RAZD, : link not working?
Edited by RAZD, : link rather than embedded
Edited by RAZD, : added

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by theLimmitt, posted 11-22-2007 3:44 PM theLimmitt has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by bluescat48, posted 11-22-2007 7:21 PM RAZD has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 137 of 301 (435772)
11-22-2007 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by RAZD
11-22-2007 5:59 PM


This idiot taught science?
I wonder what he was on when he made the video.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by RAZD, posted 11-22-2007 5:59 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by RAZD, posted 11-22-2007 9:35 PM bluescat48 has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 138 of 301 (435787)
11-22-2007 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by bluescat48
11-22-2007 7:21 PM


um,
you're taking something he said as being true ...

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by bluescat48, posted 11-22-2007 7:21 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by bluescat48, posted 11-22-2007 11:46 PM RAZD has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 139 of 301 (435796)
11-22-2007 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by RAZD
11-22-2007 9:35 PM


yeah, true garbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by RAZD, posted 11-22-2007 9:35 PM RAZD has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 140 of 301 (435799)
11-23-2007 12:53 AM


OK, enought chit-chat
Let's have some substance in the messages, or don't post them.
Adminnemooseus

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There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.
Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source

dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 141 of 301 (435801)
11-23-2007 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by theLimmitt
11-22-2007 3:12 PM


... , Dr.Hovind has a great example of this.
I've seen this assumption made before, that just because Mr. Hovind would always refer to himself as "Dr." -- even in the phone book, I've heard -- that he's a scientist. That's simply not true, as anyone could see if they were to check his education.
His PhD was in religious education, as was his MS. Not in any science, but rather in religious education. As I recall, he got both degrees from Patriot University, a diploma mill.
He did get his bachelor's from an actual college, a Christian college, and I believe it was also in religious education -- double-check that one, please. Before that, he had spent a year or two in a community college where he did follow a science curriculum. And at some point he founded his own private Christian school where he taught science and math; in his seminar tapes he repeatedly boasts that he knew all about science and math because he taught it for 15 years.
So while you assume that "Dr." Hovind is a scientist, all he knows about science he learned in the first and second year of community college. In other words, just basic introductory knowledge.
Common sense tells us that what Hovind describes is true. Common sense also tells us that a when a ball rolling down a spiral track falls off the end, it would continue to move in a spiral motion through the air. But when you actually try it, you immediately find that the ball would exit that spiral track in a straight line. Hovind's deception is to play on the audience's "common sense" understanding -- assuming, of course, that he even had any clue of the real science.
I wonder if what he was describing was the dizzy kids getting off the merry-go-round and trying to walk in a straight line, but could not because they were dizzy. Which is not at all analogous to spinning galaxies.

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
And we who listen to the stars, or walk the dusty grade,
Or break the very atoms down to see how they are made,
Or study cells, or living things, seek truth with open hand.
The profoundest act of worship is to try to understand.
Deep in flower and in flesh, in star and soil and seed,
The truth has left its living word for anyone to read.
So turn and look where best you think the story is unfurled.
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.

(filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by theLimmitt, posted 11-22-2007 3:12 PM theLimmitt has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-23-2007 9:13 AM dwise1 has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 142 of 301 (435822)
11-23-2007 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by theLimmitt
11-22-2007 3:44 PM


Hi Limmitt,
There were a couple important pieces of information about the merry-go-round example that were only briefly mentioned. One was by Ringo, and that's that when the children fly off the merry-go-round they won't be spinning unless they were already spinning when they were on the merry-go-round. Assuming the children were standing on the merry-go-round and holding onto one of the poles or were riding one of the horses, then they were absolutely spinning at the rate of one rotation per rotation of the merry-go-round. So when they fly off, assuming their last grasp of the pole or the horse didn't impart some additional rotational force, they will continue spinning at the same rate.
I forgot who mentioned the other one, but that's that the objects we see spinning today did not exist at the time of the Big Bang. Not even atoms existed at the beginning of the Big Bang. Stable atoms did not begin forming until a couple hundred thousand years later. It was hundreds of millions of years later before the first stars and galaxies began to form, and it was billions of years later that our own sun and solar system formed. Any relationship between the spin of the Big Bang and the spin of individual stars, planets and galaxies today was lost long, long ago. Arguing that they should all have the same spin today would be like arguing that the great grandchildren of the children who flew off the merry-go-round should all have the same spin.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by theLimmitt, posted 11-22-2007 3:44 PM theLimmitt has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 143 of 301 (435828)
11-23-2007 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by dwise1
11-23-2007 1:22 AM


Common sense tells us that what Hovind describes is true. Common sense also tells us that a when a ball rolling down a spiral track falls off the end, it would continue to move in a spiral motion through the air. But when you actually try it, you immediately find that the ball would exit that spiral track in a straight line.
I've been searching for the relevant psychology experiment --- do you have a reference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by dwise1, posted 11-23-2007 1:22 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by dwise1, posted 11-23-2007 3:44 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 301 (435862)
11-23-2007 11:54 AM


Its important to note that our solar system didn't even form out of the big bang, but instead from the death of a giant star that went nova. After the nova of the previous star, from those materials, our solar system formed. Our sun is a second generation star. There is a 10 billion year gap between the big bang and our solar systems formation. Life would not exist without that first giant star, the fusion of hydrogen into higher atomic forms provides the oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, etc. that we see today. This is where we get the saying that we are all made of star stuff. The discussion of angular momentums in relation to our solar system and the big bang, is not only incorrectly represented, its totally unrelated.
-x
Edited by EighteenDelta, : typing errors

dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 145 of 301 (435885)
11-23-2007 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dr Adequate
11-23-2007 9:13 AM


No, I don't. It was in a column many years ago either in Scientific American or Science '80-something (the magazine title changed each year to match the year; ceased publication somewhere around 1986). It was something like the science-literacy polls we see. In this question, they were shown four drawings of a spiral track and each picture showed a different trajectory that the ball would take. Most respondants chose the one where the ball continued to corkscrew through the air.
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
And we who listen to the stars, or walk the dusty grade,
Or break the very atoms down to see how they are made,
Or study cells, or living things, seek truth with open hand.
The profoundest act of worship is to try to understand.
Deep in flower and in flesh, in star and soil and seed,
The truth has left its living word for anyone to read.
So turn and look where best you think the story is unfurled.
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.

(filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-23-2007 9:13 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Chiroptera, posted 11-23-2007 4:03 PM dwise1 has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 301 (435886)
11-23-2007 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by dwise1
11-23-2007 3:44 PM


I saw a similar article in something like Physics Today or in The Physics Teacher at roughly the same time.
This was experiment where the subject was supposed to give a puck push so that it would enter a curved shape drawn onto the table at one end and exit the other end and stay within the shape in between. The correct solution was to just push the puck so it travelled straight through -- the curved track was wide enough so that a straight-moving puck would just pass through it without touching the sides. Yet all of the subjects tried to make the puck travel in a curved path matching the shape. Many of these subjects, if I recall correctly, had just completed a first semester course on college physics, where Newton's Laws of Motion should have been ingrained.

Computers have cut-and-paste functions. So does right-wing historical memory. -- Rick Perlstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by dwise1, posted 11-23-2007 3:44 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by crashfrog, posted 11-23-2007 4:16 PM Chiroptera has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 147 of 301 (435888)
11-23-2007 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Chiroptera
11-23-2007 4:03 PM


I blame bowling:
I think people assume that the ball's curved trajectory is a function of the curved swing before the launch; but it's really a function of a spinning ball slipping and sliding over a surface of variable friction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Chiroptera, posted 11-23-2007 4:03 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 148 of 301 (436480)
11-26-2007 12:52 AM



Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Taz, posted 11-26-2007 1:07 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 149 of 301 (436487)
11-26-2007 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Dr Adequate
11-26-2007 12:52 AM


I've always wondered about the misconception of motion. My common sense at least have always told me that objects never go in a curve unless there's something acting upon it. When a child is swung off of a merry go round, she doesn't continue to go in a curve. She goes off in a straight line. I don't understand where people get the idea that objects continue to go in a curved line if it is originally pushed that way.
When I was in 4th grade (mind you I went to a religiou school back then), my science teacher told demonstrated once to us how the planets are kept in orbit. He had a kid held his hand really tight and he ordered him to try to go in a straight path. With my teacher holding onto him tightly, he ended up going in a circle around my teacher. Ok, that was somewhat of an oversimplified notion of planetary motion, but it was the right path. My teacher then let go of that kid and he continued on in a straight line.
In other words, objects going in a straight line unless outside force acted upon it became common sense to me in 4th grade. And it was a christian school I went to, not a public school. How on Earth can people go through life totally clueless about newton's 3 laws of motion? I mean, all they have to do is try to roll a ball in a curve path. It's not like they need a state of the art laboratory to perform such an experiment.
Oh, and did I mention I got all 9... um 8 of the planets' names memorized in 4th grade? In order from the sun out: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Plu... and Neptune.

Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-26-2007 12:52 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-26-2007 1:18 AM Taz has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 150 of 301 (436492)
11-26-2007 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Taz
11-26-2007 1:07 AM


Oh, and did I mention I got all 9... um 8 of the planets' names memorized in 4th grade? In order from the sun out: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Plu... and Neptune.
"Mark's violet eyes make Jane sit up nights pining."
How are you at geological periods?
"Cows often sit down carefully, perhaps their joints creak."
It would be easier if so many of them didn't begin with C.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Taz, posted 11-26-2007 1:07 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Taz, posted 11-26-2007 4:50 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

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