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Author Topic:   Faith by Definition
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 67 of 149 (435649)
11-22-2007 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by christiansoldier
11-06-2007 12:08 AM


Re: Hebrews 11
christiansoldier, do you have any interest in discussing your views on reproductive rights?
If so, let me know and I will begin a new thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by christiansoldier, posted 11-06-2007 12:08 AM christiansoldier has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 68 of 149 (435651)
11-22-2007 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
11-20-2007 8:49 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
quote:
It was unlike anything I had ever felt before. It was so unique that I remember the actual events of that day now....14 years later.
I could say the same thing about the first time I had sex.
Or got drunk.
Or realized that I had fallen deeply in love with someone.
And all of those things happened more than 20 years ago for me, yet I remember each moment.
Having a unique experience in no way indicates a divine origin.
quote:
I am not convinced that I created it. I will agree that I experienced it.
Obviously you aren't convinced. But why? Why does Occam's razor not apply here?
quote:
Why is it so hard for people to accept that God exists, anyway?
Obviously it isn't hard for most people.
Most people don't think much about their belief. They just believe becasue they were taught to and it is too scary to consider disbelief. They also do get social benefit from the community and the reassurance and comfort that faith can provide, even if it is a baseless faith.
For those of us who really have thought a lot about it, though, it becomes pretty difficult to maintain a faith that appears indistinguishable from self-delusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 11-20-2007 8:49 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 6:04 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 69 of 149 (435654)
11-22-2007 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
11-22-2007 7:45 AM


Re: faith in personal experience
quote:
and I know that the emotions and character changes that I experienced that day involved an "other"...and it was not simply me.
How do you know?
quote:
It is said that we use less than 10% of our brains, but who said it and how they measured it is not known.
Common misconception, but kind of silly when you think about it. If we only ever use 10% of our brains, why does most brain damage in any part of the brain cause measurable effects?
We use 100% of our brains.
More info
quote:
One of the differences that I see between me and you is that I want a relationship with God and you apparently see no need for such a crutch. (one mans crutch is another mans anchor)
Eventually, you need to pull up anchor if you expect to ever sail anywhere.
quote:
Some people believe that we individually would do well to cultivate a relationship with the Spirit (life force, cosmic consciousness) of God and allow for His guidance in communion with humanity.
Conversely, others believe the exact opposite: That we need to do away with the outdated "need" for God and that we ourselves should strive to maximize our own potential and inner peace and charisma.
Well, when all you believers finally agree on what God/gods/Spirit/whatever is telling Humanity to do, let the rest of us know, OK?
Oh, and please do the same when you have figured out how to tell the difference between God speaking and your own imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 11-22-2007 7:45 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by pelican, posted 11-22-2007 10:03 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 72 of 149 (435661)
11-22-2007 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by pelican
11-22-2007 10:03 AM


Re: faith in personal experience
My point is that Phat can't tell the difference between a "real" spiritual experience and one that was imagined by him.
Nobody can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by pelican, posted 11-22-2007 10:03 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by pelican, posted 11-22-2007 10:14 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 75 of 149 (435666)
11-22-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by pelican
11-22-2007 10:14 AM


Re: faith in personal experience
quote:
And what is a 'real spiritual' experience?
My point is that Phat can't tell the difference between a "real" spiritual experience and one that was imagined by him.
Nobody can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by pelican, posted 11-22-2007 10:14 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by pelican, posted 11-22-2007 5:41 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 78 of 149 (435893)
11-23-2007 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by pelican
11-22-2007 5:41 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
I don't know what a real spiritual experience is, or if such a thing even exists.
I thought that was abundantly clear in my last two replies to you, but I hope it is now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by pelican, posted 11-22-2007 5:41 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by pelican, posted 11-23-2007 6:15 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 99 of 149 (435941)
11-23-2007 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by iano
11-23-2007 6:04 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
quote:
Unless of course it is of divine origin. In which case it would be unique (in the sense of not having the flavor of the non-divine).
What "flavor" would that be, exactly?
Or, rather, how can anyone tell the difference?
quote:
There is little point in asking for clarification here- given that experience of the divine requires experience of the divine in order to compare to the non-divine.
Sure.
How does one tell the difference between an authentic or genuine divine experience from an imagined one?
After all, we know for a fact that people can manufacture or be induced by various means to produce all sorts of feelings, including ones described as deeply religious, spiritual, or divine.
quote:
Indeed, it is experience of the divine that permits you to realise that there is such a "league" as the non-divine.
Or, people who think there is such a thing as a "divine" experience are just telling themselves that, and that every experience is a non-divine experience.
How do we tell the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 6:04 PM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 149 (435942)
11-23-2007 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by pelican
11-23-2007 6:15 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
"I don't know what a real spiritual experience is, or if such a thing even exists.
I thought that was abundantly clear in my last two replies to you, but I hope it is now."
quote:
If you don't know then how can you dispute Phat's experience?
Why should I take his word for it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by pelican, posted 11-23-2007 6:15 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by pelican, posted 11-28-2007 8:03 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 149 (435943)
11-23-2007 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by iano
11-23-2007 7:38 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
quote:
I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just saying that your knowing suffers from the same problems as does mine - when it comes to demonstrating itself absolutely
Of course, that's not true, and you have had this explained to you many times.
There are many ways to externally validate someone's existence and the fact that they are participating in an internet discussion.
We cannot do that at all for your claim of having had an authentic divine experience.
The two claims are not at all identical.
Since you have had this explained to you probably dozens of times by now, I must conclude you to be either dishionest or dense since you contine to repeat it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:38 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 12:24 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 129 of 149 (436244)
11-24-2007 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by iano
11-24-2007 12:24 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
OK, so what you are basically saying is some postmodern bullshit like "there is no reality or knowledge."
Howsabout we give you a nice big glass of cyanide to drink?
My tools will, I think, accurately predict the outcome you this action, regardless of your lame claims to the contrary. My tools work, and you still appear to be bound to the same rules of reality as everybody else, even if those rules are all in our collective heads
Sure, we might all live in the Matrix, but who cares? To say, "Reality might all be nothing like we think!" is just an elaborate effort to avoid the logical consequences of your position.
Given the tools we all use to determine what is real from what is fantasy in this reality as we know it, how do we tell the difference between an authentic divine experience and one we've imagined?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 12:24 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 7:44 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 134 of 149 (436252)
11-24-2007 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by iano
11-24-2007 7:44 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
Given the tools we all use to determine what is real from what is fantasy in this reality as we know it, how do we tell the difference between an authentic divine experience and one we've imagined?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 7:44 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 8:09 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 142 of 149 (436348)
11-25-2007 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by iano
11-24-2007 8:09 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
quote:
Unless you trust your tools you cannot tell what is real from what is fanatasy. You do know what is real and what is fantasy Schraf?
Concering this specific question:
How do we tell the difference between a genuine divine experience and and imagined one?
No, I can't tell the difference, and neither can you. Nobody can.
Oh, wait, you said that you can.
How did you, exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 8:09 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 11-25-2007 9:10 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 144 of 149 (436396)
11-25-2007 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by iano
11-25-2007 9:10 AM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
quote:
Tell the difference between a real divine experience and a fantasy divine experience? I've already told you - in the same way as I tell the difference between any real experience and any fantasy experience. In the same way that you tell the difference between a real experience and a fantasy one. I assume it is real. You assume it is real.
Well, no that's not at all what I do.
If my phone rang and the person on the other end identified themselves as my husband, and I recognized the voice as his and my phone showed me that the incoming call was one of his numbers, I would have enough information to know it was, in fact, him.
If my phone rang and the person on the other end identified themselves as George W. Bush, I would need quite a lot more information to verify that the person calling me was, in fact, George W. Bush.
I can investigate the authenticity of the person claiming to be George W. Bush in various ways that don't just originate inside my head or require me to "look within my heart" or similar. Anybody can examine my evidence about the caller and independently verify if the caller is really Bush or a prankster. I could believe it really was Bush even if it really wasn't, and even if it was never investigated or the truth never determined. The reality is independent of my beliefs or desires.
Those are the tools I use to determine fantasy from reality in this example.
How about you?
How do you tell the difference between a genuine encounter with the divine and an imagined one?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 11-25-2007 9:10 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 11-25-2007 3:43 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 147 of 149 (436517)
11-26-2007 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Granny Magda
11-25-2007 7:05 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
quote:
I don't mean to sound rude, but what about cases of psychotic delusion? I had a friend who, during a psychotic episode, thought that hospital staff were robots trying to kill him. I think that in the cold light of day, we can all agree that the medical staff were not robots (well, maybe one or two of them), but at the time he sincerely believed it to be true. In fact he assumed that it was true, thus passing your reality test. Simply assuming you are correct is no way to judge an objective reality, at least not if you wish others to take you seriously. Wouldn't you be more in honest in admitting that you have no certainties and take the veracity of any divine experience on faith alone?
My mother recently underwent heart surgery and suffered from post operative/anasthesia psychosis.
For several days, until the drugs all got out of her system, she was convinced that all of the ICU and floor staff at the hospital were showing all of her records to all the other patients, and that she overheard all sorts of dastardly deeds against her being planned by the RN's at the nurses station a few yards away, and that she had to hide her face becasue the government agents were going to see her.
She was in general incredibly paranoid, and became incredibly angry and verbally abusive to anyone who didn't sit and listen to everything she said about it as though they believed her 100%.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Granny Magda, posted 11-25-2007 7:05 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
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