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Author Topic:   Faith by Definition
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 63 of 149 (435429)
11-20-2007 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
11-20-2007 8:49 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
Why is it so hard for people to accept that God exists, anyway?
Is there any difference between your question and asking why it is so easy for people to believe God exists?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 11-20-2007 8:49 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 149 (435900)
11-23-2007 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by iano
11-23-2007 6:04 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
In which case it would be unique (in the sense of not having the flavor of the non-divine).
Huh?
Exactly how do you tell the "flavor" of the non-divine?
There is little point in asking for clarification here- given that experience of the divine requires experience of the divine in order to compare to the non-divine.
Huh?
Exactly how does one tell a divine experience from the non-divine experience?
Experience of the divine requires experience of the divine?
Do you post such nonsense often?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 6:04 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 6:54 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 149 (435909)
11-23-2007 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by iano
11-23-2007 6:54 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
Sorry but that tells us nothing.
You need to present something that anyone can use to tell a divine experience from a non-divine experience.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 6:54 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 149 (435912)
11-23-2007 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by iano
11-23-2007 7:04 PM


Don't think you can palm the pea
That is totally irrelevant and yet another example of the Biblical Christian tactic of trying to change the subject, of trying to misdirect attention so no one notices you palming the pea.
The question is "How do you determine if an experience is of divine or non-divine nature?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:04 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:19 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 149 (435918)
11-23-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by iano
11-23-2007 7:19 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
How do I? I don't. The divine does. To think that a mere human could be the decider on what is the divine and not divine is (to use a fav word of yours) silly.
So it comes down to you admitting you do not know if you have ever had a divine experience.
How utterly useless.
If you cannot determine what is divine then how can you tell if you have ever experienced a divine event?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:31 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 149 (435926)
11-23-2007 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by iano
11-23-2007 7:31 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
Er..I know I did have a divine experience. The divine made it so that I know it was divine. Can we agree that the divine (as classically defined: omnipotent and all that) can rearrange whatever it is in me that "knows" or "knows not" into "I know"*.
*lets suppose "molecular arrangement of some portion of my mind" for the sake of argument
No, not unless you can present what those changes are and how they can be tested.
You keep moving the goal posts and trying to palm the pea. The question is not what God can do, it is how someone can determine if an experience is divine or not.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:31 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:52 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 93 of 149 (435930)
11-23-2007 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by iano
11-23-2007 7:52 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
Still another attempt to misdirect the audience's attention while you palm the pea.
Of course we can run tests on my existence, and anyone can independently verify much, but you still avoid providing the support for your assertion.
I can be weighed. I can be photographed. I can be xrayed. Independent observers can test my existence.
Please list the tests that can be used by anyone, believer or non-believer to determine if some experience is divine or non-divine.
Quit trying to con the folk.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:52 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:13 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 149 (435934)
11-23-2007 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by iano
11-23-2007 8:13 PM


Iano continues to try to change the subject.
You suppose to invoke all these "people" and items of "equipment" BEFORE you have demonstrated the existance of self? To assume they exist so as to demonstrate you exist. How very circular!
What crap. A classic con attempt and yet another attempt to palm the pea.
I show methods that my existence can be verified.
Now it is your turn.
Provide the methods to determine if some experience is divine or non-divine?
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:13 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:18 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 149 (435937)
11-23-2007 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by iano
11-23-2007 8:18 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
Sorry but that still does not answer the question.
How can someone determine if an experience is divine or non-divine or admit that it cannot be done.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:18 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 102 of 149 (435944)
11-23-2007 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by iano
11-23-2007 8:36 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
It is done by the divine to the person. And if done by the divine the person knows it is the divine. They know it because of the ability of the divine to instill the sense we call "knowing".
I'm sorry but that is simply bullshit nonsense. If they know it, "How do they know that it is divine or non-divine."
You still have simply avoided the question.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:36 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 12:35 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 105 of 149 (436097)
11-24-2007 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by iano
11-24-2007 12:35 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
You seem to be labouring under the notion that the divine is not able to demonstrate his divinity.
No, I am asking how that is done and how it can be tested.
Let's try to stick to the issue and please stop trying to change the subject.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 12:35 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 1:41 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 149 (436114)
11-24-2007 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by iano
11-24-2007 1:41 PM


Still just more tap dancing.
The divine can rearrange the atoms in our brain so as we know. So as we know that no test is necessary
I'm sorry but that is both nonsense and also simply avoiding the question.
How does someone test to see if it is divine or non-divine.
Try to actually answer the question.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 1:41 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 2:00 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 149 (436122)
11-24-2007 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by iano
11-24-2007 2:00 PM


Re: Still just more tap dancing.
Do you agree that "knowing a particular thing" is simply an arrangement of atoms/cells/synapse etc?
If so, do you agree that the divine can arrange these atoms/cells/synapses?
Irrelevant and unimportant.
The question is "How do you test whether something is of divine origin or non-divine."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 2:00 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 2:16 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 149 (436128)
11-24-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by iano
11-24-2007 2:16 PM


More attempts to avoid the question.
More nonsense and attempts to change the subject will not help.
Saying that testing is silly does not help explain how to test the issue.
The question is "How do you test whether something is of divine origin or non-divine."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 2:16 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 2:42 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 149 (436141)
11-24-2007 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by iano
11-24-2007 2:42 PM


Re: More attempts to avoid the question.
iano writes:
True. The point is: why would one spend their time and energy engaging in a silly activity? Why would one engage in impossible things before breakfast.
"Test whether it was divine or not" Whoever heard of such a silly activity*!
(AbE: in the sense of deciding whether there is a divine or no)
So is your answer that it is impossible to test whether something is of divine or non-divine origin?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 2:42 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 3:05 PM jar has replied

  
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