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Author Topic:   Faith by Definition
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 92 of 149 (435928)
11-23-2007 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
11-23-2007 7:41 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
Tested? As in testing the existance of the divine? Like, we cannot even test the existance of ourselves!!
The question is not what God can do, it is how someone can determine if an experience is divine or not.
The question can easily be, in toto, what God can do. You (philosophically) assume otherwise - without mentioning the proof that you seem to suppose underlies your case.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 7:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 7:58 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 94 of 149 (435932)
11-23-2007 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
11-23-2007 7:58 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
Of course we can run tests on my existence: I can be weighed. I can be photographed. I can be xrayed. Independent observers can test my existence.
You suppose to invoke all these "people" and items of "equipment" BEFORE you have demonstrated the existance of self? To assume they exist so as to demonstrate you exist. How very circular!
"I'm xrayable - therefore I am"
Quit trying to con the folk.
Hrrumph...
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 7:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:17 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 96 of 149 (435935)
11-23-2007 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
11-23-2007 8:17 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
If you can't handle the heat..
NEXT!!!
Jar (more or less) writes:
"I'm xrayable - therefore I am"
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:21 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 98 of 149 (435940)
11-23-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
11-23-2007 8:21 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
The reason it doesn't answer the question can lie as much in the weakness of questioning as in the attempt to answer.
How can someone determine if an experience is divine or non-divine or admit that it cannot be done.
It cannot be done by the person - not that that matters a jot.
It is done by the divine to the person. And if done by the divine the person knows it is the divine. They know it because of the ability of the divine to instill the sense we call "knowing".
Sure: it could be delusion. Or the devil playing games. But that's a problem for the extent of what it is to "know". All you can do is know - you're not the divine!
Night x
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:45 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 103 of 149 (436091)
11-24-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by nator
11-23-2007 8:44 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
iano writes:
I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just saying that your knowing suffers from the same problems as does mine - when it comes to demonstrating itself absolutely
Schraf writes:
Of course, that's not true, and you have had this explained to you many times. There are many ways to externally validate someone's existence and the fact that they are participating in an internet discussion.
These "many ways" of yours all involve the bald assumption that the tools used to demonstrate someone elses existance themselves exist. You mean to tell me you can't see the circularity of your argument? This is it: "I assume this tool to exist and I apply this assumed tool to demonstrate the existance of something who existance I am attempting to demonstrate"
Your knowing these tools exist doesn't mean they do Schraf - that's elemental. You seem to have a hard time admitting that you do precisely as I do - you assume your knowing certain things exist means they do. You assume that what you perceive to be real is real and move on to apply these perceived tools to particular perceived jobs which you also assume to be real.
Your general error is to forget that your argument has to attach to something concrete at the end. And there is nothing concrete at the end. Your structure is built on a foundation called Your Assumptions About The Nature Of Reality. Just as mine is.
The two claims are not at all identical.
The foundations are indeed identical. The structures each of us build will depend upon what we perceive the reality to be. But its the foundation that's important.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 11-23-2007 8:44 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by nator, posted 11-24-2007 7:35 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 104 of 149 (436095)
11-24-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
11-23-2007 8:45 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
iano writes:
It is done by the divine to the person. And if done by the divine the person knows it is the divine. They know it because of the ability of the divine to instill the sense we call "knowing".
Jar writes:
If they know it, "How do they know that it is divine or non-divine." You still have simply avoided the question.
I don't believe I have. You seem to be labouring under the notion that the divine is not able to demonstrate his divinity.
Which would be foolish in the extreme. If we are to suppose that "knowing" is a particular arrangement of braincells (that differs to the arrangement of brain cells called "suspect that") then it doesn't take a major leap to suppose that the divine can ensure brain cells take on the arrangement call "knowing it is the divine"
How do I know? Because the divine made it so. How else do you suppose it could happen in not thus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 12:39 PM iano has replied
 Message 106 by bluescat48, posted 11-24-2007 1:38 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 107 of 149 (436113)
11-24-2007 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
11-24-2007 12:39 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
iano writes:
You seem to be labouring under the notion that the divine is not able to demonstrate his divinity.
jar writes:
No, I am asking how that is done and how it can be tested.
Irrelevant questions in the light of what I say. If you agree the divine can demonstrate his divinity to you then the how and test matter not. You wouldn't have to test the divine if the divine decided to reveal in a way that required no test to be performed
I've said it before and shall say it again. The divine can rearrange the atoms in our brain so as we know. So as we know that no test is necessary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 12:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 1:44 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 109 of 149 (436115)
11-24-2007 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by bluescat48
11-24-2007 1:38 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
To all and sundry you mean? Depends on which divine-model you apply I suppose.
If it was the biblical God you were talking about then I would suggest there were very good reasons why he doesn't just turn up for all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by bluescat48, posted 11-24-2007 1:38 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 110 of 149 (436120)
11-24-2007 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
11-24-2007 1:44 PM


Re: Still just more tap dancing.
I think we may be talking alongside each other. Maybe a couple of points of common agreement would help??
Do you agree that "knowing a particular thing" is simply an arrangement of atoms/cells/synapse etc?
If so, do you agree that the divine can arrange these atoms/cells/synapses so that "we know"?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 1:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 2:03 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 112 of 149 (436125)
11-24-2007 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
11-24-2007 2:03 PM


Re: Still just more tap dancing.
??
What I'm attempting to show is that your question belongs in Alice in Wonderland. Simply reverting to the question asked (as if it belongs anywhere but in Wonderland) doesn't help your case.
Engage in the problems posed. Wrestle free from the Wonderland notion of having to test whether it is the divine or not. Whoever heard of such silliness!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 2:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 2:23 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 114 of 149 (436138)
11-24-2007 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
11-24-2007 2:23 PM


Re: More attempts to avoid the question.
Saying that testing is silly does not help explain how to test the issue.
True. The point is: why would one spend their time and energy engaging in a silly activity? Why would one engage in impossible things before breakfast.
"Test whether it was divine or not" Whoever heard of such a silly activity*!
(AbE: in the sense of deciding whether there is a divine or no)
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 2:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 2:49 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 116 of 149 (436151)
11-24-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
11-24-2007 2:49 PM


Re: More attempts to avoid the question.
er...no.
My answer was that you cannot test for the divine (in terms of it existing or no). The divine must come to man - not man coming to the divine (by way of his man-sized tests)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 2:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 3:10 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 118 of 149 (436157)
11-24-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by jar
11-24-2007 3:10 PM


Re: iano still dances.
Now I can. After experiencing the divine I have a measure against which to examine subsequents. But that is different to testing for the existance of the divine in the first place. Which seemed to be your bent

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 3:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 3:21 PM iano has replied
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 11-24-2007 3:56 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 120 of 149 (436167)
11-24-2007 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by jar
11-24-2007 3:21 PM


Re: iano still dances.
Present you with the specifics?
Are you not being a little presumptuous in supposing that you would be in a position to understand the specifics?
On what basis that notion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 3:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 5:05 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 123 of 149 (436209)
11-24-2007 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
11-24-2007 5:05 PM


Re: iano still dances.
I have claimed it is possible that I can test. This on the basis of my prior exposure to the divine.
You are being presumptious in supposing that you could make any sense of the specifics. Why do you suppose you should be able to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 5:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 5:36 PM iano has replied

  
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