Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,742 Year: 3,999/9,624 Month: 870/974 Week: 197/286 Day: 4/109 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   should creationism be taught in schools?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 209 of 301 (436036)
11-24-2007 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Beretta
11-24-2007 2:20 AM


Re: The Topic is Teaching Creationism in Schools
To keep science moving forward we really should agree to stick to the facts AND their possible interpretations not just the evolutionary interpretations of the facts.
No, to keep science moving forward you stick to facts and tested explanations of the evidence that show our understanding to be correct.
Science does not include any little old interpretation you like -- the earth is flat is an interpretation, it is false.
Facts don't speak for themselves they must be interpreted, why should evolutionists refuse to allow the opposition's interpretations to be shown? If the reality of evolution is so obvious, children will get the point and evolutionists shouldn't be scared of that approach.
False. Facts are Facts, they represent the truth of reality. You can understand them and thereby understand reality.
There are NOT two realities.
Everybody has the same bare facts but we come to different conclusions -why can creationists and ID proponents acknowledge that their ideas are interpretations of the facts and yet evolutionists fail to notice when they are interpreting and insist on calling their interpretations facts?
Because they don't stand up to the test against the evidence. They are either a fanciful pile of made up wishes that are not tested (or untestable) OR they are already invalidated concepts that - unlike scientists - creationists and IDologists won't let go (irreducible complexity among others).
Creationists also have not purged their house of the lies and the liars, and until they do that, then any "interpretation" is highyl questionable AT BEST.
That is not science.
There IS scientific support for these ID interpretations but in your evolutionary eyes, that would make those scientists not worthy of having an opinion.
No, everyone can have an opinion. The difference between support for a concept and science is that science doesn't worry about WHO supports it but WHAT supports it -- the evidence, the tests, the validation, reality.
Science is about understanding the evidence of reality, while creationism and IDology are about misinterpreting it to fit fantasy.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Beretta, posted 11-24-2007 2:20 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Beretta, posted 11-24-2007 8:24 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 211 of 301 (436042)
11-24-2007 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Beretta
11-24-2007 7:12 AM


Re: The Topic is Teaching Creationism in Schools
The fact of red blood cell remnants found in dinosaur bones only goes to show that it is extremely unlikely that such fragile structures could have lasted 10's of millions of years and casts doubt on the geologic time scale as it is generally accepted.
The fact of red blood cell remnants found in dinosaur bones only goes to show that whatever age the dinosaur is, that they did survive.
The "unlikely" argument is just another argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy, and not one based on facts about what can and cannot survive. Many things have survived longer than was thought possible, but what that changes is how long we think things can survive.
You're right there -lets not teach lies.
That covers most of creationism.
Creationists by and large assumed that evolution had been proven more than a hundred years ago. Those that did were wrong. The abandoned paradigm has to be resurrected if that is where the evidence leads. Scientists are battling scientists on this issue not fools battling science nor religion versus science. If creation science is not the consensus at this time, that is no reason to write it off if the evidence points in that direction.At least allow for ID if not the Biblical creation account.
Demonstrate that "Scientists are battling scientists on this issue" and that you aren't making stuff up. Where are your references, or are we back to teaching lies?
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Beretta, posted 11-24-2007 7:12 AM Beretta has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 222 of 301 (436060)
11-24-2007 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Beretta
11-24-2007 6:36 AM


Interpretations - true or false ... this is a test ...
It makes no sense to teach children wrong interpretations
Well then we should stop teaching them evolution in that case.
After scientific experiments show that evolution - as defined and used in evolutionary biology - is wrong.
Demonstrating that creationist straw man arguments are false just demonstrates that the straw men are wrong and not evolutionary biology. Seeing as the creationist arguments were wrong at the start this is no biggy. 1+1=3 is wrong from the start, demonstrating that fact does not add to knowledge, nor does it demonstrate that 1+1=5.
Materialism may be all we can see but that does not mean that is all there is. It's like the old example of two computers discussing how they came about by assuming what is going on inside is all there is.
Science is about what we can observe and test. By definition that is the natural world. You can call it "materialism" but that doesn't change the reality that science deals - and only deals - with the natural world.
They don't realize that they were put together by somebody outside of their little world so they write that off as a possibility and all their hypotheses about what happened are all wrong because they can't see their creator and their stories of how they happened to be get sillier and sillier while they try to make sense of their existance.
Evidence please. Without evidence this is not science, not fact, but faith, belief. It is fine to have belief, but we shouldn't confuse it with science.
OR we can teach evolution as a possibility and not exclude creation as an alternative possibility and see where the evidence/the facts lead.
Or we can keep doing what science does - test concepts for validity, weeding out the invalid concepts and predicting results that will increase our understanding of reality ... and we can teach the results of these endeavors in science class as legitimate results of scientific studies.
We can discuss invalid ideas in science - a flat earth, astrology, a young earth, and the reasons these concepts are now invalid due to our increased understanding of reality, in order to show how science works in eliminating invalid ideas.
There is only one reality, and we either understand it or we don't. There are not multiple valid interpretations of reality, this is a false paradigm. We either have a true understanding of reality or we don't.
We have evidence, facts, and we can assume it is true to reality or we can assume that it is false.
  • If we assume there is false evidence we can make no conclusions about reality, and all science, all philosophy, all religion are equally inconclusive. This is the refuge of people who want to continue believing something that is contradicted by evidence - "flat earthers" for instance.
  • But if we assume that all evidence is true to reality then we can test concepts against that evidence to see whether it is valid or invalid. This is what science does.
Science tries to understand reality for what it is, not interpret things according to any preconceived world view, and it does this by testing concepts against evidence and discarding invalid ideas.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : clarity
Edited by RAZD, : added.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Beretta, posted 11-24-2007 6:36 AM Beretta has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 225 of 301 (436065)
11-24-2007 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Beretta
11-24-2007 8:34 AM


false beliefs
If they believe evolution, yes -they started with believing in evolution ...
It's not belief. Belief has nothing to do with science. This has been demonstrated and continued ignorance of this fact is willful denial of reality.
... so they have not altogether wasted their time.In fact there's a whole lot of great science out there ...
Based on evolution. You know, the kind that provides you with new medicines.
No not to a person -there are those that do not believe it and there are many that do not need to use it at all and therefore can carry on doing what they're doing with no ill effects ..
You're so freakin generous: they can go on leading deluded lives, it's okay, it's not entirely wasted effort ... they won't be harmed by it ...
Nothing like the arrogance of assumed moral superiority in all it's naked glory. Fortunately it is false pride on your part with no truth to it.
And you still have not provided one whit of evidence for your personal opinion.
Or answered those points where you have been refuted. Ignoring them won't make them go away, nor make your petty opinion correct.
You're now at 51 substantiation free posts.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Beretta, posted 11-24-2007 8:34 AM Beretta has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 273 of 301 (436425)
11-25-2007 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Beretta
11-21-2007 12:43 AM


Re: The logic of both fallacies?
Your interpretation should not be the only one allowed.
One wonders how much creationists really want to pursue this position.
Message 133
What makes you think that there is only one Creation story?
I don't think there's only one story but I absolutely believe there is only one that makes sense, that has loads of historical and archeological verification in its favour and lines up with the evidence
Applying the logic of the first statement means that every single version of creationism should necessarily be presented. They are all, after all, interpretations ... every one of them.
Comparative religion anyone?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : clarify

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Beretta, posted 11-21-2007 12:43 AM Beretta has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 274 of 301 (436428)
11-25-2007 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Beretta
11-25-2007 6:50 AM


More false "Interpretations"
Scientific journals are reluctant to print anything that smells of opposition to evolution ...
Translation: Scientific journals are reluctant to print anything that smells of opposition to science ...
This is why geology journals don't print the nonsense from the "RATE" group, which has not one thing to do with evolution, just as one example.
They are not creeping in through the back door -they are simply not allowed in the front door so they go through other doors in order to be heard.
The "front door" is called "doing science" as (surprise) that is what qualifies as doing science.
And to stick to the point - creation/ID arguments against evolution ...
... are NOT arguments for either creation or ID.
An argument FOR creationism, or FOR IDology would state something like:
  • The theory of creationism (or IDology) states "If {X} then {Y}"
  • A prediction based on this theory that would ONLY occur if this theory were true is {Z},
  • {Z} occurs, here is the evidence (link, journal article etc).
No such argument has yet been made.
No other kind of argument will make either concept scientifically valid. Ever.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Beretta, posted 11-25-2007 6:50 AM Beretta has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 275 of 301 (436467)
11-25-2007 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Beretta
11-24-2007 8:24 AM


The Flat Earth as a Teaching Point
The earth is not and has never been flat. That was never a creationist story.
(1) this doesn't explain the existence of flat earthers:
http://www.lhup.edu/%7Edsimanek/febible.htm
http://www.lhup.edu/%7Edsimanek/fe-scidi.htm
(2) this is irrelevant to the POINT, that anyone can have any old "interpretation" they want, but that does NOT make it legitimate or valid in ANY WAY.
Such concepts as the flat earth are excellent examples to use in science class to show children that "interpretation" is not enough to be science, and that they fail because they are contradicted by reality.
Facts are facts and do not need to be interpreted to be used. The fact that the earth goes around the sun does not need to be interpreted, it just needs to be seen.
Now that we have demonstrated that "interpretation" itself is not a path to truth, you need to ask how you decide if a concept is true.
Do you test it against reality?
Do you test it for conformance to preconceived concepts?
How did you decide on the issue of the flat earth?
The Bible says clearly that the earth is a 'sphere that hangs on nothing.
That's your interpretation. Flat earthers have a different one. Should we not teach both interpretations whenever one is taught? If your church only teaches one interpretation of the bible isn't that wrong? Shouldn't they be forced to teach all interpretations and let the people decide?
How do you decide which interpretation is correct?
Do you test it against reality?
Do you test it for conformance to preconceived concepts?
How did you decide on the issue of the flat earth?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : added.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Beretta, posted 11-24-2007 8:24 AM Beretta has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 289 of 301 (436612)
11-26-2007 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Beretta
11-26-2007 10:59 AM


Re: huh?
Also, can science teachers have equal time in the churches?
They don't need it - kids are in school all week.
That was not the question. The question is whether you think alternative explanations and presentation of different interpretations are equally valid there as well. It's about being fair and balanced isn't it?
... the scientific evidence for design.
... the scientific evidence for design.
Which according to you is
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Beretta, posted 11-26-2007 10:59 AM Beretta has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024