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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
jar
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Posts: 31522
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 151 of 675 (423826)
09-24-2007 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Thugpreacha
09-24-2007 1:27 PM


Re: The Evil theology of Dr. James Montgomery Boice
If you have any suggested online sermons for me to check out, pass them along.

No, I have no such suggestions. IMHO listening to sermons is pretty much a waste of time and pointless.

Read instead.

Read Twain, read Hemingway, read the writings of Archy, read.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13057
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 152 of 675 (424005)
09-25-2007 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by jar
09-24-2007 1:43 PM


Reading?
What good is it gonna do to read a bunch of human philosophical opinions? I realize that a broad and well rounded educational experience allows one to be less of a narrow minded and biased critical thinker, but surely in this era, multi media such as film and broadcasts are another way to transmit information.

Personally, I have recently listened to the following:

Colorado Public Radio

Ravi Zacharias

I know that Ravi is controversial, but don't tell me that he is yet another on your list or irrelevant theobabblists. ;)

Edited by Phat, : correctomundo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 09-24-2007 1:43 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 09-25-2007 5:34 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 154 by Rrhain, posted 09-25-2007 6:04 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31522
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 153 of 675 (424009)
09-25-2007 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Thugpreacha
09-25-2007 5:08 AM


Re: Reading?
I know that Ravi is controversial, but don't tell me that he is yet another on your list or irrelevant theobabblists.

Sorry but yes. He is just another theobabble huckster.

Shop Ravi

What good is it gonna do to read a bunch of human philosophical opinions?

I don't know. Did I recommend that?

Read, I said. Question. Doubt.

Multi-media is designed to sway the emotions. It is the preferred medium of the huckster, the infomercial.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-25-2007 5:08 AM Thugpreacha has responded

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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 154 of 675 (424011)
09-25-2007 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Thugpreacha
09-25-2007 5:08 AM


Re: Reading?
Phat responds to jar:

quote:
What good is it gonna do to read a bunch of human philosophical opinions?

Ahem. What else is there to read other than human philosophical opinions? Every religious tract, whether spoken or written, has come from a human.

Edited by AdminAsgara, : content hidden. participation in this thread is restricted to jar and Phat


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13057
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 155 of 675 (424443)
09-27-2007 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
09-25-2007 5:34 AM


Bishop Spong
This was an interesting item that i received in my e-mail:

Bishop Spong Q & A:

Renee from the Internet writes:

I was a Christian once - for about 18 years, or most of my adult life. But then I read the Bible honestly and realized it was mostly evil. I am now Pagan/Hindu and will never be a Christian again. I know you agree that there is much evil in the Bible. You even reject basic Christian doctrines like being born in sin, the vicarious sacrifice of Jesus' blood for those who believe and heaven and hell. How then are you still a Christian? The depiction of Satan in the Bible is far better that the depiction of God. If the Bible reflects God in any way truly, then he is a monster and Satan is a hero for rebelling. Don't you agree? So, why are you still a Christian?

Bishop Spong replied:

Dear Renee,

No, I do not agree. Of course, there are parts of the Bible that reflect tribal hatred and portray God as a vindictive ogre. I point them out constantly in this column and in my books. However, that fact does not render the core message of the Bible to be either wrong or irrelevant. The Bible defines God as love in the book of Hosea. The Bible defines God as justice in the book of Amos. The Bible asserts that proper liturgy is not God's desire but proper lives that "do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God" are. That is the message of Micah. The Bible stretches the tribal deity of its own limited past into a universal presence in the book of Malachi. The Bible enjoins us to rise to ever new levels of humanity in Jesus' exhortations to love your enemies and to bless those who persecute you. So I study the Bible daily and treasure it as a resource.

In three quick sets of statements, I cherish the Bible because

1. It affirms that my life is holy and that all of us were created in God's image.
2. It proclaims that I am loved no matter what I do or who I am.
3. It calls me to be all that I can be.

Please note the Trinitarian formula, for that is what I mean when I acknowledge God as Father (creator), Son (fully loving life), and Holy Spirit (life giver).

I do not worship the Bible. I do not regard it as the inerrant word of God. I know its content far too well for that to be a possibility. I accept the Bible for what it is, the chronicle of a faith story that grows as people journey through time, seeking to understand their God experience.

The things you call basic Christian doctrines like "being born in sin" or the "vicarious sacrifice of Jesus' blood for those who believe" and "heaven and hell" are not basic Christian doctrines to me at all. They are various theories developed by a behavior-controlling religious institution designated to frighten people or to make them pliable. There is no sense of hell in Paul, for example, and the vicarious sacrifice as the interpretation of the cross appears not to be something that Jesus taught but the message of the Jewish Day of Atonement being literalized and applied to Jesus by a later generation of Christians. Only then did Jesus become the new sacrificed Lamb of God. I have no desire to worship a God who requires the death of Jesus as the means of achieving salvation. Sadism is hardly a Godlike attribute, neither is the victim's masochistic pleasure in being crucified. That idea of salvation is simply not consistent with the message of the Fourth Gospel that the purpose of Jesus was to give life abundantly.

So I suggest that the Christianity you reject is not Christianity at all, but a terrible distortion that we all need to reject. Christianity, as I understand it, is far more than that. I hope you will find someday a church that does not distort Christianity, as your present experience seems to indicate.

John Shelby Spong

He seems to share some of the views that assert that Christianity itself is not evil...its just the maps some of us follow!


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13057
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 156 of 675 (424468)
09-27-2007 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
09-25-2007 5:34 AM


Theologians and Theobabble
Ravi may be a book seller as are most of the CCOI Christians, but his website is not entirely a storefront. Among the intersting items that I found available free there was a series of debates between Theologian Alister McGrath and Sir. Richard Dawkins. both of whom are respected members of their disciplines at Oxford University.

Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath (Mp3) Dawkins - McGrath debate (part 1 of 2)

Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath (Mp3) Dawkins - McGrath debate (part 2 of 2)

You can't say that McGrath is a Theological huckster. He is no slouch, and while I respect Sir. Richard, I think that McGrath gave him a good debate.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


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jar
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Posts: 31522
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 157 of 675 (424500)
09-27-2007 9:42 AM


Lost me again
Is there anything in either of those posts to discuss or debate?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13057
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 158 of 675 (435300)
11-20-2007 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
09-27-2007 9:42 AM


Does God much care if we talk to Her?
jar writes:

Is there anything in either of those posts to discuss or debate?

Yes, as a matter of fact.

Spong writes:

I do not worship the Bible. I do not regard it as the inerrant word of God. I know its content far too well for that to be a possibility. I accept the Bible for what it is, the chronicle of a faith story that grows as people journey through time, seeking to understand their God experience.

Spong speaks of the Bible as a story of people throughout time seeking to understand their God experience.

So is God knowable or not? Do you personally ever believe that when you are saying a prayer that it is being heard by God or do you consider the idea irrelevant?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 09-27-2007 9:42 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by jar, posted 11-20-2007 11:00 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31522
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 159 of 675 (435307)
11-20-2007 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Thugpreacha
11-20-2007 10:03 AM


Re: Does God much care if we talk to Her?
Your title and the content of the post seem unrelated. Let me try to address them separately.

First the post sub-title: "Does God much care if we talk to Her?"

There is absolutely no way that anyone can honestly answer that. How can I tell what God wants?

Now let me try to address the post itself.

You provide a quote from Spong and then state, "Spong speaks of the Bible as a story of people throughout time seeking to understand their God experience."

But then you go on to ask, "So is God knowable or not?"

That is unrelated to what Spong is talking about. God and God experience are two different concepts.

What we can know about GOD is only some god we create, our own personal God experience. It is that which the Bible and other things can help us understand, but it is never more than a Map, it is not the Territory.

Do you personally ever believe that when you are saying a prayer that it is being heard by God or do you consider the idea irrelevant?

Irrelevant.

Prayer if done properly is a form of contemplation. It is an intimate time of reflection and should be used as such. It is not some wish list or request line.

The key is that YOU must hear, that you put aside the outside voices and honestly listen to yourself, look at what YOU are saying, question what YOU are saying, rebut what YOU are saying. Prayer should be a moment when YOU listen to YOU and when YOU honestly question what YOU say and do.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13057
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 160 of 675 (436702)
11-27-2007 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by jar
11-20-2007 11:00 AM


Being Honest with what we believe

Jar writes:

How can I tell what God wants?

I am rarely 100% sure, but try to do the best I can except when it is extremely uncomfortable for me to do so. I am a wimp when it comes to suffering! ;)

Jar writes:

We are the sum of our experiences.

I am also a Christian. As I see Christianity is both a set of teachings and also the body, the communion of Christians down through the ages. Some Christians were great, some evil, most simply forgotten. All though were Christian.

Later I learned more of the history of this thing, this communion called Christianity. What I learned was not always pleasant, much in fact was horrific. Very little was as simple or serene as what I had been taught.

What I learned was that down through the ages many horrific things were done in the name of Christianity and by Christians. Protestants oppressed Catholics, Catholics oppressed Protestants, and both oppressed every other religion. Down through the ages the Jew came in for special attention, being expelled from nearly every country and their property seized. Time after time it happened.

So what if a Christian was trying to do the best that they could, except that they were afraid to throw out the dogma they had been taught and the preconceived ideas that they had come to believe? Would this make them WRONG? Some people worship the source and ignore the content of human experience.

Edited by Phat, : fixed sub title


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by jar, posted 11-20-2007 11:00 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31522
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 161 of 675 (436739)
11-27-2007 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Thugpreacha
11-27-2007 7:59 AM


Re: Being Honest with what we believe
You lost me again. It says it is a reply to Message 159 but nothing in the post appears to be related to anything in Message 159.

So what if a Christian was trying to do the best that they could, except that they were afraid to throw out the dogma they had been taught and the preconceived ideas that they had come to believe? Would this make them WRONG?

Wrong? Not sure I understand. If they held on to something that was wrong, false, incorrect then they would be willfully ignorant. If they refused to question something for fear it would be show to be false, then they would just have a weak and pitiful belief.

What do such questions have to do with the quote from me that IIRC is from "On Christianity"?

Some people worship the source and ignore the content of human experience.

Huh?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-27-2007 7:59 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-27-2007 12:15 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13057
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 162 of 675 (436746)
11-27-2007 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by jar
11-27-2007 12:04 PM


Translation to JarSpeak
Why is it that you always make me explain myself further? In so doing, you force me to conform to your logic, reason, and reality standards rather than simply using your intuitive speculations on what I am talking about! :rolleyes: Oh well.

  • Why is your belief paradigm the only logical one that you can accept? As an example, lets contrast Proverbs with Jars Belief statement:
    Jar writes:

    Joe taught all the classes, and he explained that when you were little, and baptized, your parents and god-parents had taken responsibility for your education and acts, but that now that you were growing up, it was time that YOU took responsibility for yourself.


    contrasted with:
    NIV writes:

    Prov 3:5-7
    5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
    6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.

    7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.

    Is it possible to accept full responsibility for all of our own actions and at the same time "not be wise in our own eyes"?

    Is it possible to accept responsibility for what we do and still "lean not on our own understanding"?

    How do you interpret the meaning behind the wisdom of the Proverb?

    (BTW this has nothing to do with the previous post. This is a new sub topic within our Great Debate. We were essentially discussing C.C.O.I. philosophy in light of logic, reason, and reality and whether the two differ in any way.)


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 161 by jar, posted 11-27-2007 12:04 PM jar has responded

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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31522
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 163 of 675 (436762)
    11-27-2007 12:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 162 by Thugpreacha
    11-27-2007 12:15 PM


    Re: Translation to JarSpeak
    Proverbs 1

    7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
    but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

    If you want to play the silly quotemine game, remember that I have been doing it longer than you and I am likely better at it.

    The various Bibles are a big ass resource written by a blue brazillion different authors and redacted by a gaggle more then translated by another band of merry (need I say Gay) men.

    What ever point you happen to want to support, or refute, you can cobble together some quotes from the Bible to prove your point.

    In the end, you have nothing.

    If you are not to be a fool despising wisdom and discipline, you need to learn to think, examine and question on your own.

    Did you even continue reading Proverb 3? I doubt it, because if you had you would have found...

    13 Blessed is the man who finds wisdom,
    the man who gains understanding,

    14 for she is more profitable than silver
    and yields better returns than gold.

    and

    21 My son, preserve sound judgment and discernment,
    do not let them out of your sight;

    22 they will be life for you,
    an ornament to grace your neck.

    and

    35 The wise inherit honor,
    but fools he holds up to shame.

    Read all of the material Phat, don't just skim and grab some part out of context as though it supports your position because it is likely that there is a reader out there who actually has read the whole thing.

    quote:
    Is it possible to accept full responsibility for all of our own actions and at the same time "not be wise in our own eyes"?

    Of course. In fact, what do the two even have to do with each other? Who other than you should be responsible for your own actions?

    quote:
    Is it possible to accept responsibility for what we do and still "lean not on our own understanding"?

    In the end, as Proverbs 3 actually says if you read the whole thing, it is only what you know that you can work with. Again, how does accepting responsibility exclude understanding? Don't you think when you do something wrong it might be a good idea to understand what it was and why it was wrong?

    quote:
    How do you interpret the meaning behind the wisdom of the Proverb?

    Did you actually read the Proverb or are you asking me to address the little quotemined part you posted?

    quote:
    Why is it that you always make me explain myself further? In so doing, you force me to conform to your logic, reason, and reality standards rather than simply using your intuitive speculations on what I am talking about!

    Because I thought the goal was to actually answer and discuss and not for me to just intuit what I think you are saying.

    By the way Phat, the whole series, Proverbs 1 through 4 are on guess what, The value of wisdom. They are about learning from those who went before you, on the value of knowledge, on the need to continue learning, on how wisdom is more valuable than gold or anything else, yet you pulled one little piece out of context as though it opposed wisdom.

    Even the passage you quoted is only saying "Don't think you know it all."

    Why do so many of the CCOI folk choose to quotemine? Do they really think that just because they don't read the whole thing that others do not? Just because they do not get challenged when in the Christian Communion of Bobbleheads, do they really think the rest of us will just sit and nod?


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 162 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-27-2007 12:15 PM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 164 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-23-2007 3:40 AM jar has responded
     Message 185 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-01-2010 10:43 AM jar has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13057
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 164 of 675 (442919)
    12-23-2007 3:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 163 by jar
    11-27-2007 12:50 PM


    Moving beyond Dogma
    Jar writes:

    If you are not to be a fool despising wisdom and discipline, you need to learn to think, examine and question on your own.

    OK OK, I get it! Using logic, reason, and reality, right?

    So...in your eyes, what is (or should be) the future of religion on Earth? Is it outdated?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 163 by jar, posted 11-27-2007 12:50 PM jar has responded

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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31522
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 165 of 675 (443000)
    12-23-2007 12:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 164 by Thugpreacha
    12-23-2007 3:40 AM


    Re: Moving beyond Dogma
    No.

    There is nothing in reason, logic and reality that is in anyway a problem for religion, unless you think religion should be unreasonable, illogical and based on unreality.


    Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 164 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-23-2007 3:40 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 166 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-07-2008 11:05 AM jar has responded

      
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