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Author Topic:   So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work?
dwise1
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Message 1 of 2 (436781)
11-27-2007 2:39 PM


In Message 296 of the should creationism be taught in schools? topic, I responded to Beretta thus, but the thread closed before he responded:
DWise1 writes:
Beretta writes:
Granny writes:
NJ writes:
There is a general belief that if you introduce intelligence in to the equation that we have now strayed from science right in to theology.
Right again.
Unless the truth is that there is a creator - in which case evolutionists has strayed far into the realms of invention and a religion of their own.
That does not follow. If you try to introduce a supernatural intelligence into the equation, then you have indeed strayed from science right in to theology. Whether certain gods exist or not, the natural world still works the way that it works. It is irrelevent whether any of those gods exist or not; the world still works the way in which it works. And that is what science studies.
If you disagree and insist that science must include supernaturalistic explanations, AKA "goddidit", then please explain just how such a science is supposed to work.
Seriously. That is, after all, what the Wedge Document calls for. What it lays out a decades-long public relations campaign for. To change the fundamental nature of science so that it relies on supernaturalistic explanations. So just exactly how is such a "science" supposed to operate? How is it supposed to function?
We need to ask such questions because the answer will be how ID will be teaching our kids about science and about how it's supposed to work.
I hereby call upon Beretta to respond with his description of how this "paradigm shift" that he's pushing for and in full support of is supposed to produce a new science that actually works. I call upon Beretta to describe this brave new science that he wants to impose upon us and to demonstrate that it would work.
Of course, if any other ID advocates would like to contribute, they would be more than welcome.
Here is basically how science currently works. We observe the natural world and form hypotheses to try to explain what we observe. Then we test those hypotheses by using them to make predictions and then either conducting experiments or making further observations. Those hypotheses which prove correct are kept and subjected to further testing, while those that don't pan out are either examined for what's wrong with them and they either get discarded or a correction is attempted which is then subjected to further testing. Out of this process we develop a bundle of hypotheses which are used to develop a theory, a conceptual model of the natural phenomena in question and which describes our understanding of what that phenomena are and how they operate. That theory is used to make predictions and it is tested by how good those predictions are; thus the theory undergoes further testing and refinement and correcting. And that testing is not performed solely by the developers of the theory, but also by other members in the scientific community who have a vested interest in finding problems in that theory because they may be basing their own research on that theory -- if that theory turns out to be wrong, then they want to know that before they start their own research based on it.
Now, an extremely valuable by-product of all this hypothesis building and testing is questions. In science, the really interesting and valuable discoveries are the ones that raise new questions. Because questions help to direct our research. Because by realizing what we don't know and what we need to find out, we know what to look for and we have some idea of where to find it. Without those questions, science loses its direction and gets stuck.
Science cannot use supernaturalistic explanations, because they don't explain anything. We cannot observe the supernatural either directly or indirectly; we cannot even determine whether the supernatural even exists. Supernaturalistic explanations cannot be tested and hence cannot be evaluated nor discarded nor refined. They cannot produce predictions. They cannot be developed into a conceptual model that could even begin to attempt to descibe a natural phenomena nor how it works. And supernaturalistic explanations raise absolutely no questions and so provide absolutely no direction for further research. "Goddidit" explains nothing and closes all paths of investigation. Supernaturalistic explanations bring science to a grinding halt.
In Message 245 I wrote:
And from what I understand of the Wedge Document, ID's goal is not really to "teach the controversy", but rather it is to eliminate evolution and to pervert science into their own image, effectively killing science as well.
In Message 250, Beretta replied:
effectively killing science as well.
Believing in ID cannot possibly kill science.
I contend that Beretta is dead wrong. ID's goal is to reform science to be based on supernaturalistic explanations, or at the very least to include them. It is the inclusion of supernaturalistic explanations that will kill science.
The task before Beretta and any other ID advocate is to prove that ID will not kill science. A required component of that proof is a detailed description of just how ID-based science is supposed to operate. Certainly their ID idols have already provided them the answer. And if even they haven't come up with a description of how their brave new science will function, then why not?

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)
Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)
There those for whom a mystery equals God; such that if scientists cannot explain it, then that must mean that God did it and hence it is proof of the existence of God. So when these people see a mystery, they want it to remain a mystery. But when a scientist sees a mystery, he wants to solve it. The "mystery equals God" approach seeks to preserve ignorance whereas the scientific way seeks to learn more. That is the most basic difference between scientists and creationists.

AdminSchraf
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 2 (436837)
11-27-2007 7:05 PM


Thread copied to the So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work? thread in the Theological Creationism and ID forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

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