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Author Topic:   Poor Satan, so misunderstood.
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 485 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 301 (436968)
11-28-2007 10:23 AM


Poor Satan, so misunderstood.

Genesis indicates that to know God we must study and know good and evil. After all, this is why God gave us the tree of good and evil.

Scripture also indicates that all of God’s works are Perfect. This makes Satan Perfect to accomplish the work of helping us learn of good and evil.

Job tells us that Satan is in the complete control of God. Doing His bidding at all times.

Since Satan is the only angel who has been given free access to man, we should recognize that He is above the other angels.

One could say that He works more directly with God than all the other angels. God’s number one angel.

Why then do most absolutely hate this Satan. He is closer to God than any of us. He at least know half of the good and evil that we live with.

Should we not do as scripture indicates we should do and hate sin while loving the sinner. Or in this case love the one who is causing us to sin at God’s urging?

Should we love Satan?

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-28-2007 5:21 PM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 11-28-2007 6:42 PM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 17 by jaywill, posted 12-04-2007 7:09 PM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 187 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-08-2008 3:23 PM Greatest I am has responded

  
AdminNem
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Message 2 of 301 (437047)
11-28-2007 5:10 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 3 of 301 (437051)
11-28-2007 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
11-28-2007 10:23 AM


The Adversary
Job tells us that Satan is in the complete control of God. Doing His bidding at all times.

Yes, this is one criticism that Judaism has with Christianity. Jews allege that Satan is in fact the Tempter, but that his function has a benevolence about it, because although he tries to trip you up, it is ultimately for your gain-- school of hard knocks kind of thing.

Conversely, Christians model after what Jesus spoke of Satan, the Aversary, who goes to and fro the earth like a prowling lion.

Since Satan is the only angel who has been given free access to man, we should recognize that He is above the other angels.

There is another aspect that differs considerably. According to the Christian paradigm, Satan and the Fallen Angels fell after being given the choice to either stand with God or try to become as God themselves. 2/3 of the angelic hosts decided to rebel.

Now they are angry because they have no saving grace. They see humans and how God deals with them, always forgiving them. And so the demons make it their life's work to interfere in someone's life so that they can be condemned as they are out of their jealousy.

The question is, angelic beings like seraphim, which Satan would have been based off of the description, were never creatures of freewill. If they never had a freewill to question God in the first place, then how were they even given the option of a freewill by God?

Why then do most absolutely hate this Satan.

Its not so much that they hate Satan as it is that he hates them. He has devoted his temporal time to seeing all people be accursed by God. So they try to avoid him like the plague.

Should we love Satan?

Most Christians will say that you should not pray for Satan because he has his lot in life, and nothing will change it. He is supposed to be destined for perdition, whereas all of mankind can be saved, even those who persecute you.


“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 11-28-2007 10:23 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16333
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 4 of 301 (437068)
11-28-2007 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
11-28-2007 10:23 AM


Greatest I am writes:

Should we love Satan?

Should we love Boromir, who tried to steal the One Ring from Frodo? Should we love Long John Silver, who tried to kill Jim Hawkins? Should we love Guy Montag, who burned books?

Satan is depicted in different ways in different parts of the Bible because he's a fictional character. In each instance, he has a literary function.

Yes, those functions are often misunderstood. One of the worst misunderstandings is thinking of him as an entity.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 11-28-2007 10:23 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by bluescat48, posted 11-29-2007 7:05 AM ringo has not yet responded
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 Message 8 by Phat, posted 11-30-2007 4:31 AM ringo has responded
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 5 of 301 (437181)
11-29-2007 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
11-28-2007 6:42 PM


Should we love Boromir, who tried to steal the One Ring from Frodo? Should we love Long John Silver, who tried to kill Jim Hawkins? Should we love Guy Montag, who burned books?

Satan is depicted in different ways in different parts of the Bible because he's a fictional character. In each instance, he has a literary function.

Yes, those functions are often misunderstood. One of the worst misunderstandings is thinking of him as an entity.

well put


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 11-28-2007 6:42 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 485 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 6 of 301 (437196)
11-29-2007 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Hyroglyphx
11-28-2007 5:21 PM


Re: The Adversary
If he is truly doing the work of God And God has never lost the Perfection of His beginning then we will all share Heaven with Satan. We will all recognize his greatness as God's right hand man.
If God's works are to remain Perfect then this must be the way.
Evil is that important to our growth.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-28-2007 5:21 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 485 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 7 of 301 (437197)
11-29-2007 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
11-28-2007 6:42 PM


I agree that Satan is a catch all name for all the evils we perceive.
Like the word God, Satan is a title, not a name.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 11-28-2007 6:42 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12241
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 8 of 301 (437443)
11-30-2007 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
11-28-2007 6:42 PM


The Irony of it all
Ringo writes:

One of the worst misunderstandings is thinking of him as an entity.

Interesting. In order for me to argue the point, I would be glorifying a personification of evil, which does not bode well for my motive in argument! :D

Surely you have heard variations of this quote, however:

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled is convincing the world he didn't exist."

Some folk believe that there is an actual spiritual war of sorts occurring all around and about us. This cannot be proven, however.

Others believe that since we (humans) become the decisions that we make, we create our own Heaven and Hell.

Personally, I believe that there is a spiritual dynamic that cannot be proven. I believe that there is definitely an all powerful Spirit that is, IMHO, fair and good.

As to whether there is a personified evil spirit also, I wont declare as a belief. To do so would be to give credit to an unwelcome presence.

Edited by Phat, : add quote


"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut!
Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 11-28-2007 6:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 11-30-2007 10:48 AM Phat has responded
 Message 22 by Greatest I am, posted 12-05-2007 9:45 AM Phat has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16333
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 9 of 301 (437493)
11-30-2007 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
11-30-2007 4:31 AM


Re: The Irony of it all
Phat writes:

Surely you have heard variations of this quote, however:
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled is convincing the world he didn't exist."

That's page 1 in the Conspiracy Theory Handbook: If you don't see the conspiracy, it must be working. If you deny the conspiracy, you're part of it.

Others believe that since we (humans) become the decisions that we make, we create our own Heaven and Hell.

Since we are capable of making our own lives - and the lives of others - Better or Worse (heaven or hell), why attribute our own deeds to unseen forces?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 11-30-2007 4:31 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-02-2007 10:10 AM ringo has responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2033 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 10 of 301 (437495)
11-30-2007 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Hyroglyphx
11-28-2007 5:21 PM


Re: The Adversary
There is another aspect that differs considerably. According to the Christian paradigm, Satan and the Fallen Angels fell after being given the choice to either stand with God or try to become as God themselves. 2/3 of the angelic hosts decided to rebel.

and this is the problem... christians are not monotheists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-28-2007 5:21 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2033 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 11 of 301 (437497)
11-30-2007 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
11-28-2007 6:42 PM


Should we love Long John Silver

yes. he makes great fish. mmmm. long john silver.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 11-28-2007 6:42 PM ringo has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 301 (437500)
11-30-2007 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by macaroniandcheese
11-30-2007 10:53 AM


Re: The Adversary
I would love to see the source for NJ's story.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-30-2007 10:53 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2033 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 13 of 301 (437506)
11-30-2007 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
11-30-2007 11:01 AM


Re: The Adversary
[hint]
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 Message 12 by jar, posted 11-30-2007 11:01 AM jar has not yet responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 12241
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 14 of 301 (437974)
12-02-2007 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
11-30-2007 10:48 AM


Re: The Irony of it all
Ringo writes:

Since we are capable of making our own lives - and the lives of others - Better or Worse (heaven or hell), why attribute our own deeds to unseen forces?

Yes, but without the belief in unseen forces Christianity becomes just another do-good philosophy.

They can call me neurotic and delusional for believing in God and, perhaps Satan...but I have seen manifestations of both indirectly. (unsupported? Sure, why not? :p )

I have seen people behave in such a vindicative, manipulative, and purposeful way that were there no actual devil, they themselves could assume the role.

I have also seen ordinary people do extraordinary acts of selfless kindness that were not natural.

I myself have experienced times where I was giving good advice and encouragement to someone and I was scarcely aware of having formed the words that I spoke to them. (not that I'm claiming supernatural status, but it was a wee bit unusual! :D )


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 11-30-2007 10:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 301 (437978)
12-02-2007 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
12-02-2007 10:10 AM


Re: The Irony of it all
Phat

They can call me neurotic and delusional for believing in God and, perhaps Satan...but I have seen manifestations of both indirectly.

What is it about the manifestations that convinces you that it was God or Satan? And why is it indirect and not obvious?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-02-2007 10:10 AM Phat has not yet responded

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