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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III)
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 226 of 357 (431190)
10-29-2007 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by johnfolton
10-28-2007 7:30 PM


Re: Siberia's Massive Irrelevance to GISP2
Siberia is one of the coldest areas in the northern hemisphere but it has evidence in its permafrost called peat.
Yet the area you are talking about is a coastal environment near sea level at 66.5°N to 70°N (and 67°E to 72°E), while the Greenland GISP2 core was taken from 72.6°N, 38.5°W, 3200 meters (~10,500 feet, nearly 2 miles) above sea level:
http://www.agu.org/revgeophys/mayews01/node2.html
quote:
On 1 July 1993 the Greenland Ice Sheet Project Two (GISP2) successfully completed drilling through the base of the Greenland Ice Sheet and another 1.55 m into bedrock at a site in the Summit region of central Greenland (72.6N; 38.5W; 3200 masl) [Mayewski et al., 1994a].
In addition the climate NOW at your Siberia sites (taking the northermost one for example):
quote:
Climatically, the Seyaha region corresponds to the Arctic zone. The climate today is continental with a mean annual temperature of -9.8°C, mean winter temperature -16.4°C, mean January temperature -22.9°C, mean summer temperature +5.6°C, and mean July temperature +7.2°C. The winter (with mean day temperatures below 0°C) duration is 255 days and summer (with mean day temperatures above 0°C) lasts for 110 days. Tundra vegetation dominates the area, with low shrubs such as dwarf birch and willow occurring in river valleys only.
Is significantly different from the climate NOW at the GISP2 core site:
quote:
The Summit region has proven to be an ideal site from which to recover deep ice cores. The ~-31°C mean annual air temperature at Summit and minimal occurrence of melt layers throughout the record assure the in-situ preservation of a broad range of gaseous, soluble and insoluble measures of the paleoenvironment. The ~-9°C ice temperature measured at the base of the two cores (W. Hancock and M. Wumkes, personal communication, 1993; N. Gundestrup and L. Hansen, personal communication, 1993) assures that the ice sheet in this region is frozen to its bed.
No permafrost there, to say nothing about forests at any time while the rock is covered by ice.
Siberia is located in the upper hemisphere like Iceland and Greenland but because of the prevailing winds does not get excessive moisture as does Greenland or Iceland.
Deserts don't get much precipitation either, but that doesn't mean that the environment is the same, a position that is demonstrably false by comparing their environments and ecosystems today.
Yet massive amounts of Peat in Siberia all needing thousands of years to form in a temperate climate are all dating only thousands of years old.
So? Your article talks about periods that had faster peat growth, but that still is not related to the Greenland ice core area or the change in climate there.
Given the evidence is that Siberia had a temperate continental climate only thousands of years ago then Greenland was green and the ice varves only thousands of years old.
Logically false. The climate in Siberia back in the Holocene Optimum is only ~2.5°C warmer, estimated from the effect of global warming in your article:
quote:
The climate in the Shchuch’ya River valley region is also continental, with a mean annual temperature of -7.5°C, mean winter temperature -16.1°C, mean January temperature -24.0°C, mean summer temperature +8.4°C, and mean July temperature +13.2°C. The winter duration is 236 days, and summer lasts for 129 days. The region is also dominated by tundra vegetation, but trees such as birch and larch grow in the valleys of large rivers.
The peat near Labytnangi town is interesting because it simulates the Holocene Optimum thawing near the southern limit of the permafrost area. Thirty years ago, it was frozen (the ground temperature below -2 oC), but during the last 10-15 years the peat thawed very quickly due to global warm ing. In this area climate is also continental, with mean annual temperature of -7.0°C, mean winter temperature -15.3°C, mean January temperature -23.6°C, mean summer temperature +8,9°C, and mean July temperature +13.8°C. The winter duration is 229 days, and summer duration is 136 days.
{abe}Note +13.8°C = 57°F{/abe}
And applying twice this difference to Greenland at the site of the cores still means an mean annual air temperature at Summit ~-26°C -- STILL significantly different from your sites in Siberia. Thus it would take an order of magnitude more warming to turn the Greenland GISP2 site into Siberia.
Borisov argued that this idea is not all that far-fetched. He notes that measurements carried out on Greenland’s northeastern glaciers as far back as the early 1950’s showed that they were loosing ice far faster than it was being formed. 8 The northeastern glaciers were in fact in “ablation” as a result of just a 1C rise in average global temperature. What would be expected from another 2C rise? - over the course of several thousand years?
In other words, global warming is not new, and you are talking about the coastal ice fields and not the glacier where the ice cores were taken.
Message 220
Given the Yamal Peninsula was not frozen over with trees known to be growing that far north for thousands of years. Meaning a climate far different may have existed where the summer and winter climatic models that have been assumed are being re-evaluated.
Or one just enough different that the trees growing in the river valleys would survive on the hillsides. A change far less extreme than the difference between the climate in Siberia and the one at the GISP2 ice core location.
With only a 1 degree rise in global temperature today you need a paddle boat near the north pole. Imagine what a 2 degree rise in global temperature would do in respect to opening up the Artic Ocean to the ocean tidal currents.
In the summer of 2006. Previous explorers have encountered open water at the pole before this, and this still is not the GISP2 site climate\environment.
Its highly possible that the Artic Ocean was open 5,500 years ago and that these indicator fossils ...
What "indicator fossils"? Which paper? Please try to be a little more coherant?
... are only 5,500-9,500 years old.
So?
In the same part of the link as the Berezovka Mammoth it talks of temperate plants and warm weather animals all jumbled together within the Artic Circle along the same latitude as Greenland all around the globe.
No real evidence the ice varves in Greenland could of existed with all these warm blooded creatures and temperate plant thriving for thousands of years 5,500 years ago.
There are many warm-blooded creatures living within the Arctic Circle today, dogs for instance, so this means little. From your sited "Ancient Ice" article:
quote:
The well preserved "mummified" remains of many mammoths have been found along with those of many other types of warmer weather animals such as the horse, lion, tiger, leopard, bear, antelope, camel, reindeer, giant beaver, musk sheep, musk ox, donkey, ibex, badger, fox, wolverine, voles, squirrels, bison, rabbit and lynx as well as a host of temperate plants are still being found all jumbled together within the Artic Circle - along the same latitudes as Greenland all around the globe.39
Reference 39 is an AnswersInGenesis article by Michael J. Oard:
quote:
Michael J. Oard has an M.S. in atmospheric science from the University of Washington and works as a meteorologist with the US National Weather Service in Montana. He is the author of the monographs An Ice Age Caused by the Genesis Flood and Ancient Ice Ages or Gigantic Submarine Landslides? He serves on the board of the Creation Research Society.
A weatherman? Writing (supposedly) about paleontology?
I also see no relevance of this information to either the environment of the Yamal Penninsula OR the GISP2 site in Greenland -- those fossils could be from anywhere, given the detail of data in the articles, nor do we have information on the age of each fossil. It looks to me like a typical creationist article that tries to provide massive misinformation in a pseudo-scientific manner while providing no real information and no way to validate the information.
Given that AiG publishes documented falsehoods on a regular basis it is not a reliable site for anything, and thus neither is any article that uses it for a reference. Relying on them puts you in a position of passing on falsehoods through ignorance of the facts. For instance:
Message 216
The Greenland Ice varves are melting today and the average global temperature its been said to have "only" raisen 1 degree celcius over the last 100 years.
Compare that statement to this picture (with strangely no discussion) from the "Ancient Ice" article:
quote:

Doing a little research I found the reference:
Maximum Melt Extent on Greenland Ice Sheet, 2005
quote:
Passive microwave satellite data are used to map snowmelt extent and duration on the Greenland ice sheet. The total melt extent of the ice sheet, experiencing at least 1 melt day between April 1 - September 25 shows a record extent in 2005 for the 27-year long time PM data set. The 2005 melt extent exceeds the previous record of 2002. (Steffen et al., 2004; Hanna et al., 2005)
There was extensive melt for 7 days during 2005 that covered ALL of southern Greenland including South Dome at an elevation of 2900 m for 3 days. This event resulted in the largest melt area recorded on the ice sheet surpassing the previous record in 2002. The 3-D view of Greenland melt extent shows the total melt area for 2005 and highlights the regions that never melted in the previous 26-year long PM record.
The melt extent for 1992 (minimum extent) and for 2005 (maximum extent) are displayed in the same 3-D view of Greenland in light red (1992) and dark red (2005) color.
In other words, the area that is white did not have 1 day of melt in all of 2002, 2005 or the last 26 years in the record, and that is also where GISP2 is located. (See http://www.lib.utexas.edu/...ands_oceans_poles/greenland.jpg about where the vertical longitude crosses the solid latitude line ... you want 72.6°N, 38.5°W).
Melting in Greenland does not mean melting of the ice layers at the GISP2 location.

Summary

The environment at GISP2 is significantly different from the Siberian Yamal Penninsula and there is no real basis for saying that evidence from the Holocene Optimum at one site compares to conditions at the other.
The further spread (dilution?) of information to vague and general conditions anywhere within the Arctic Circle (starting at ~66.5°N) and jumbling in fossils from any number of sites does not increase the evidence that things were significantly different enough at GISP2 to turn it into an environment anything like the Yamal Penninsula. This is much more like misdirection than evidence -- the kind of misdirection used by magicians during staged tricks.
There has not been significant melt recorded at the GISP2 site, nor has there been any other evidence presented that suggests that the layers of ice at GISP2 are not annual layers that add up to an age of 110,000 years for the ice, and at least that time for the existence of the earth.
There is not one (1) thing in any post of yours so far that addresses the issue of correlations between dating methods. Without addressing those correlations all your innuendos are just pie in the sky concepts, typical of creationists.
Thus your posts have not been relevant to the actual conditions at GISP2, whether now or in the past, nor to the issue of correlations between dating methods, the actual topic of this thread.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : abe

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by johnfolton, posted 10-28-2007 7:30 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by johnfolton, posted 10-29-2007 9:09 PM RAZD has replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 227 of 357 (431200)
10-29-2007 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by RAZD
10-29-2007 6:34 PM


Re: Siberia's Massive not Irrelevance to GISP2
Razd writes:
Yet the area you are talking about is a coastal environment near sea level at 66.5N to 70N (and 67E to 72E), while the Greenland GISP2 core was taken from 72.6N, 38.5W, 3200 meters (~10,500 feet, nearly 2 miles) above sea level:
It does not sound like the land itself is 2 miles above sea level just the ice. Do you have any evidence the lands elevation is any different than the Yamal Peninsula.
Given the evidence is that Siberia had a temperate continental climate only thousands of years ago then Greenland was green and the ice varves only thousands of years old.
Razd writes:
Logically false. The climate in SIberia back in the Holocene Optimum is only ~2.5C warmer, estimated from the effect of global warming in your article:
Purdue University talking about tropical organism's thriving at around 73 degrees Fahrenheit basically beneath the north pole.
These organisms are indicator fossils because they were not dated by C-14 unlike the tropical plants that dated 5,500 to 9500 years old by the Russians.
The age given to the indicator fossils is held together only by circular reasoning unlike the concrete dates given by C-14 by the Russians.
One can not assume the indicator fossils existed 55 milllion years ago because you have evidence tropical plants existed in the artic latitudes only 5,500 years by the Russian study and no plants existed before 9,500 years ago by the same Russian study.
The Purdue said tropical plants basically violate all your global warming senerio's they said:
"We,hence, need to improve our climatic models. An important question i, what was seasonality like in the Artic? Was there an as-large temperature difference between summer and winter as there is nowadays?"
http://www.physorg.com/news68305951.html
The problem with evolutionists they always basing the past by the present.
The Purdue University is saying global warming from the past can not be based on our present understanding of global warming (seasons temp extremes), seasonality, etc...
You have evidence about the past within the Russian study that plant life did not date beyond 9,500 years. This should raise a flag that that these dates only support the creationists young earth senerio's.
If the earth was old the Russians study should of had tree's/Peat dating 50,000+ years. They didn't their evidence does not support an old earth.
P.S. In an artic tropical like climate would think rainfall would be the result not snow much like we see in Seattle Washington.
I don't see how Ice Varves could of existed however will let you get back to your topic. I've got things happening just trying to raise within your mind a question of doubt about the truthfullness of ice varves even existing 5,500 years ago.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by RAZD, posted 10-29-2007 6:34 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by RAZD, posted 10-30-2007 8:14 AM johnfolton has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 228 of 357 (431266)
10-30-2007 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by johnfolton
10-29-2007 9:09 PM


Re: Siberia's Massive Irrelevance (still) to GISP2
I don't see how Ice Varves could of existed however will let you get back to your topic. I've got things happening just trying to raise within your mind a question of doubt about the truthfullness of ice varves even existing 5,500 years ago.
First off the world of reality is not affected by what you see and understand. The fact remains that you do not provide any explanation for the correlations once you throw out the concept of the ice layers being only 5,500 years: your explanation of the facts is incomplete at best, fallacious at worst. Science on the other hand explains both the age they get and the correlations.
It does not sound like the land itself is 2 miles above sea level just the ice. Do you have any evidence the lands elevation is any different than the Yamal Peninsula.
Well you could take the difference between the elevation and the core length, the data is there. Of course you would want to compare the difference in elevation at the time of the Yamal Penninsula thaw during the Holocene Optimum -- say 9,000 years ago, which is pretty near the top of the column of ice. Otherwise you are comparing one place at one time and another at another time.
These organisms are indicator fossils ...
You still have not explained what "indicator fossils" you are talking about: to be scientific about this you need to list the species identifications with locations and climate where they were found ... "somewhere" in the Arctic Circle is rather inadequate at best, and an outright falsehood at worst in terms of talking about conditions either at the Yamal Penninsula or at the GISP2 site in Greenland (where no fossils have been found).
Purdue University talking about tropical organism's thriving at around 73 degrees Fahrenheit basically beneath the north pole.
I thought the North Pole was over water (and thus necessarily at sea level). And this too is irrelevant when talking about the climate at GISP2. Just as irrelevant as the climate at Yamal Penninsula, because it is significantly different today.
If the earth was old the Russians study should of had tree's/Peat dating 50,000+ years. They didn't their evidence does not support an old earth.
False, totally false. Not just because the logic is false, but because there can be any number of reasons for no peat before 9,000 BP -- one of which is that the area was covered by ice.
The problem with evolutionists they always basing the past by the present.
This too is a falsehood. Science is based on the assumption that the evidence is true, that the evidence tells you what happened. What we see by applying this is that at several times in the past that climate and conditions were different than they are at the present -- note how thoroughly this falsifies your claim.
P.S. In an artic tropical like climate would think rainfall would be the result not snow much like we see in Seattle Washington.
First, temperatures up to 73°F is not tropical, and second, once again, what you think is irrelevant to what the evidence shows. Third, right there in Seattle you can look out and see mountains covered in snow and ice year round, mountains with heights similar to the GISP2 site.
Note you have not refuted a single point I have made regarding the difference in climate at GISP2 down to and including the lack of evidence of melting at the site.
The reality is that you have no argument. You can't (or won't attempt to) explain the correlation in dating methods, and you can't refute existing methods with irrelevant information.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : corrected subtitle
Edited by RAZD, : grammar

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by johnfolton, posted 10-29-2007 9:09 PM johnfolton has not replied

SophistiCat
Junior Member (Idle past 4867 days)
Posts: 13
From: Moscow
Joined: 02-03-2007


Message 229 of 357 (436831)
11-27-2007 7:00 PM


John Baumgardner on C14
You've heard of John Baumgardner, a YEC geophysicist, member of the RATE group, and a proponent of the accelerated decay "theory". He is currently in a thread over at theologyweb, actually debating "evolutionists" about carbon dating of coal and related topics. You may want to take this rare opportunity to engage one of the leading YECs (and rip him a new one).

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 Message 230 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2007 8:55 PM SophistiCat has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 230 of 357 (436863)
11-27-2007 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by SophistiCat
11-27-2007 7:00 PM


Re: John Baumgardner on C14
Thanks, and welcome to the fray, SophistiCat.
I don't have the time or energy to debate on other forums.
A better thread to put this information is Radioactive carbon dating. The rest of my response is there at Message 151, with one point I'd like to repeat here:
quote:
The problem for these people is that even if such "contamination" of samples is common in the world of archaeological samples that do come from sources that obtained their C12 and C14 from atmospheric carbon, that the level of error produced is still within the margin of error for the dating methods, and radioactivity can be eliminated in most cases relatively easily. Take the Lake Suigetsu clay\diatom varves, with some 35,000 annual layers and samples of organic debris found in the layers: because of the manner of formation of the varves there is no source of radioactivity that could change the age of those samples, and the varve layer age would still correlate with the radiocarbon date properly.
The correlations still demonstrate that a YEC world is not possible.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by SophistiCat, posted 11-27-2007 7:00 PM SophistiCat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2007 5:17 AM RAZD has replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 231 of 357 (436931)
11-28-2007 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by RAZD
11-27-2007 8:55 PM


Re: John Baumgardner on C14
Take the Lake Suigetsu clay\diatom varves, with some 35,000 annual layers and samples of organic debris found in the layers: because of the manner of formation of the varves there is no source of radioactivity that could change the age of those samples, and the varve layer age would still correlate with the radiocarbon date properly.
The lake suigetsu study says that gaseous C14 diffuses gradually within the earth system(your own study)in C02 gases. You have anaerobic digestion(releasing gaseous C14)in the Co2 being generated and we know humic acids formed from anerobic digestion bond to organics and almost all the minerals on the periodic table including lead.
Liquefaction sorting explains the lower floating varves are not annual varves. The absense of oxygen (anaerobic digestion)decays organics known to form humic acids. Humic acids bond to organics and almost all the minerals on the periodic table including lead. The clays forming in the floating varves in this liquefacation state would sort by particle size and pressure(enhanced by the Co2 and Methane gases reducing bouyancy (particle density), explaining diatom layers, clay layers, (multiple sorting upwards).
The greater age with increasing depth is explained by the C14 diffusing upward by CO2 & Methane anaerobic gasing.
One of the other members wondered to if the core taken was colloidal meaning humic in nature. I don't remember you ever answering that question. There is a whole lot of problems for one its a marine environment where the ratio is affected with dissolved C14 and you just wave all the biological and physical stuff away as it has no meaning when this is just not science. Humic acids is the stuff happening in an anaerobic environment as in the sediments of Lake suigetsu. Its just not science to sweep real science under the rug it would be like taking a pigs tooth and fabricating nebraska man.
========================================================
http://EvC Forum: Dating from the Adams and Eves Threads -->EvC Forum: Dating from the Adams and Eves Threads
We ground this into the ground on Neds Thread on dating from adam and eve thread. These are just some of the links explaining C14 can and does migrate due to anaerobic digestion and humic acids do sort by liquification sorting due humic acids bond to organics and near all the minerals on the periodic table. With the gasing the dates would date older the deeper into the lake bed meaning all the data is bogus flawed but interesting.
Here are the links about just some of the biological,chemical, and physical processes thats happening in an anaerobic lake sediments. No need to rediscuss this for it was discussed to death on the thread dating adam and eve thread. But for those that are not up to speed here are the main links discussed in respect to the lake suitsu varves.
Enjoy !!!!!
14C is present in gaseous form (CO2) and gradually diffuses in the earth system.(from Razd own study they acknowledge C02 diffuses and 14C is present in gaseous form (C02)).
http://www.cio.phys.rug.nl/HTML-docs/Verslag/97/PE-04.htm
Liquefaction occurs in saturated soils, that is, soils in which the space between individual particles is completely filled with water. This water exerts a pressure on the soil particles that influences how tightly the particles themselves are pressed together.
http://www.ce.washington.edu/...faction/html/what/what1.html
Humic acids are ubiquitous naturally occurring polymers, important precursors or components of kerogen, bitumen, petroleum, and coal1-3. They occur in soil and sediment4, peat5, coal6, lake water4,7, sea water8, plants and coral skeletons9,10. They increase soil fertility11
Routinely humic acid preparations for research have been variable mixtures of many organic and inorganic components. In this study it was found that humic acids bind to peptides and proteins, and can bind 10 times their own weight of clay particles, even solubilizing them.
Solution IR and NMR spectra of some fractionated humic acid derivatives were similar to those of kerogen, bitumen, petroleum, and coal. Hopefully this research will inspire new directions in a confused field.
http://welcome.to/humics/structurems/humicms.htm
When microorganisms die in ponds of water or in the ocean, they slowly sink to the bottom, forming a thick black sludge. Over time, this sludge becomes buried and compacted by more organisms and layers of mud. If oxygen is left out of the mixture, the organic matter can’t decay and it eventually fossilizes into the material called kerogen.
http://nai.nasa.gov/news_stories/news_detail.cfm?ID=87
Kerogens are chemical compounds that comprise the segment of organic matter in sedimentary rocks "insoluble in the normal organic solvents" because of its huge molecular weight (upwards of 1,000). The soluble portion is known as bitumen. Each kerogen molecule is unique because it is formed by the random combination of numerous monomers.
Kerogens are the precursors to hydrocarbons (fossil fuels), and are also the material that forms oil shales.
Kerogen - Wikipedia
A factor contributing to the poor characterization of humic acids has been their poor definition and lack of rigorous purification.
Routinely humic acid preparations for research have been variable mixtures of many organic and inorganic components. In this study it was found that humic acids bind to peptides and proteins, and can bind 10 times their own weight of clay particles, even solubilizing them. No doubt this has led to many errors, such as the enormously high molecular weights that have been reported.
Solution IR and NMR spectra of some fractionated humic acid derivatives were similar to those of kerogen, bitumen, petroleum, and coal. Hopefully this research will inspire new directions in a confused field.
http://welcome.to/humics/structurems/humicms.htm
Pore pressures in seabed sediments can vary considerably, and for a number of different reasons. For example, slumping, seismic events and even placing or removing man-made structures such as oil drilling platforms can all change pore pressures. However, because many marine or lake sediments are not very permeable, these effects can often last a long time. Other causes may include the presence of gas and a varying level of salinity in the pore fluids. These cause a buoyant effect which puts higher layers of sediment under pressure from below. All such anomalies will last as long as the sediment's permeability will allow.
Page not found – Geotek Ltd.
About Humic Substances
Humic substances are ubiquitous in the environment. Their importance in agriculture and soil sciences has been acknowledged for over 150 years. Aquatic scientists have been slower in appreciating their importance, but now realize that they may constitute as much as 95% of the total dissolved organic matter in aquatic systems and often are equal to or greater than the concentrations of inorganic ions present. In many cases they act as the major buffering system, which has serious implications for acidification of lakes and rivers.
While important for microbial processes that drive many ecosystems in our world, the true interest to the chemist is their interactions with other elements and compounds. Humic substances have been documented to interact in some manner with over 50 elements from the periodic table.
http://www.hagroup.neu.edu/abouthafrm.htm
Observe how small the contact forces are because of the high water pressure. In an extreme case, the porewater pressure may become so high that many of the soil particles lose contact with each other. In such cases, the soil will have very little strength, and will behave more like a liquid than a solid - hence, the name "liquefaction".
Page not found | UW Civil & Environmental Engineering
How do you know its inner parts were not being mineralized, via humics. Really this is getting old, without a complete mineral analysis testing for humics, cellose, clays, leachates complete mineral profiles its all circular.
A substantial fraction of the mass of the humic acids is in carboxylic
acid functional groups, which endow these molecules with the ability to
chelate positively charged multivalent ions (Mg++, Ca++, Fe++, most other
"trace elements" of value to plants, as well as other ions that have no
positive biological role, such as Cd++ and Pb++.)
Humic Acids
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2007 8:55 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2007 7:44 AM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 233 by RAZD, posted 11-28-2007 7:49 AM johnfolton has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 232 of 357 (436938)
11-28-2007 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by johnfolton
11-28-2007 5:17 AM


Re: John Baumgardner on C14
You seem to have forgotten to explain what this means with respect to the actual data. Obviously it doesn't affect the laying down of the varves. And if the source of the contaminating carbon is lower, it must have been there even longer. I can't see that this helps YECs!.
Anyway, if your point is correct - we should see a systematic bias towards the carbon age being older than the age calculated from the varve count - and older than the carbon dates measured for objects of the same age. Perhaps you would like to check that and reprot the results.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2007 5:17 AM johnfolton has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 233 of 357 (436939)
11-28-2007 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by johnfolton
11-28-2007 5:17 AM


another false lead
The greater age with increasing depth is explained by the C14 diffusing upward by CO2 & Methane anaerobic gasing.
This has already been covered on Carbon 14 Dating and the possible effect of "leaching", conclusion: no apparent leaching of C14 compared to C12 has occurred in Lake Suigetsu.
This still does not explain the correlation between C14 ages, the varve layers and the climate patterns in ice caps and Lake Suigetsu, nor the matching data in the overlap period with the tree rings.
Until you can explain the correlations between dating methods, speculation about possible theoretical problems with one dating method does not amount to a hill of beans -- the possible theoretical part is invalidated by the correlations.
Got that yet?
{abe}
... C14 can and does migrate due to anaerobic digestion and humic acids ...
And the leaf samples would not exist if there had been digestion of any kind.
Humic substance - Wikipedia
quote:
Humic acid is one of the major components of humic substances which are dark brown and major constituents of soil organic matter humus that contributes to soil chemical and physical quality and are also precursors of some fossil fuels.
Humic substances arise by the microbial degradation of plant and animal tissues and ultimately biomolecules (lipids, proteins, carbohydrates, lignin) dispersed in the environment after the death of living cells.
Again, this would mean that there would be no leaf sample left.
No need to rediscuss this for it was discussed to death on ...
Several threads and in no case did reversespin\charley\golfer\whatever make a point that was valid.
========================================================
14C is present in gaseous form (CO2) and gradually diffuses in the earth system.(from Razd own study they acknowledge C02 diffuses and 14C is present in gaseous form (C02)).
http://www.cio.phys.rug.nl/HTML-docs/Verslag/97/PE-04.htm
That link no longer works, but this still doesn't explain how C14 gets from your gas -- IF it exists -- into the organic samples and replaces the carbon in the molecules. Without a mechanism to exchange the carbon this is again just your wishful thinking and not a real explanation. This has been pointed out before so repeating it is just evidence that reversespin\charley\golfer\whatever is ignoring evidence that contradicts him.
Liquefaction occurs in saturated soils, that is, soils in which the space between individual particles is completely filled with water. This water exerts a pressure on the soil particles that influences how tightly the particles themselves are pressed together.
Which does not apply to sediment already at the bottom of a lake.
Doesn't mention carbon-14 anywhere nor discuss preferential leaching of isotope specific carbon.
When microorganisms die in ponds of water or in the ocean, they slowly sink to the bottom, forming a thick black sludge. Over time, this sludge becomes buried and compacted by more organisms and layers of mud. If oxygen is left out of the mixture, the organic matter can’t decay and it eventually fossilizes into the material called kerogen.
This doesn't apply to the leaf samples buried in the Lake Suigetsu varves, and this Kerogen is absent from the Lake Suigetsu varves, more evidence that this doesn't apply here.
As is typical of reversespin\charley\golfer\whatever, this is a lot of irrelevant information that does not apply to the situation, and doesn't affect the carbon content or ratio in the samples of organic matter from Lake Suigetsu.
Lack of understanding, of the articles and of the data from the Lake, contributes to this false perception (or is it intentional misrepresentation?) by reversespin\charley\golfer\whatever. This has happened before. Frequently. But don't take my word for it -- read the thread he listed:
http://< !--UB EvC Forum: Dating from the Adams and Eves Threads -->http://EvC Forum: Dating from the Adams and Eves Threads -->EvC Forum: Dating from the Adams and Eves Threads< !--UE-->
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : tangents
Edited by RAZD, : added last link

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2007 5:17 AM johnfolton has replied

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 Message 234 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2007 9:34 PM RAZD has replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 234 of 357 (437111)
11-28-2007 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by RAZD
11-28-2007 7:49 AM


Its a Young Earth Folks !!!!!!
14C is present in gaseous form (CO2) and gradually diffuses in the earth system.(from Razd own study they acknowledge C02 diffuses and 14C is present in gaseous form (C02)).
http://www.cio.phys.rug.nl/HTML-docs/Verslag/97/PE-04.htm
This is a direct quote from the suigetsu Lake study on one of your links. Anyone familar with biological science knows the absense of oxygen causes anaerobic digestion that causes humic acids but more interestingly forms C02 which releases C14 into solution.
Which is why all your dates are proportional and increase with depth are not believable.
because of the manner of formation of the varves there is no source of radioactivity that could change the age of those samples, and the varve layer age would still correlate with the radiocarbon date properly.
This is a delusional statement because because by anaerobic digestion 14c is being released into solution that is whats responsible for changing the age of the varves proportionally with increasing depth.
Its also delusional to believe a mountain of ice could of existed in a tropical climate 6,000-9000 years ago.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
de·lu·sion /dlu’n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-loo-zhuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun 1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by RAZD, posted 11-28-2007 7:49 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by RAZD, posted 11-28-2007 11:07 PM johnfolton has replied
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 235 of 357 (437143)
11-28-2007 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by johnfolton
11-28-2007 9:34 PM


Re: Its a Young Earth Folks !!!!!!
This is a direct quote from the suigetsu Lake study on one of your links.
Provide the source so we can see how your have misrepresented it (note prediction). You are remembering one of your irrelevant links, I'll bet.
Anyone familar with biological science knows the absense of oxygen causes anaerobic digestion ...
Only IF there are anaerobic bacteria present where the object is. In the absence of anaerobic bacteria nothing happens.
Now we look at the evidence -- do we see leaves digested in unidentifiable mulch (humus) or do we see identifiable leaves thousands of years old?
Conclusion: no anaerobic bacteria are present around the leaf.
See how simple that is? See how it uses evidence from the Lake?
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2007 9:34 PM johnfolton has replied

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 Message 236 by johnfolton, posted 11-29-2007 12:27 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
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Message 236 of 357 (437157)
11-29-2007 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by RAZD
11-28-2007 11:07 PM


Re: Its a Young Earth Folks !!!!!!
Only IF there are anaerobic bacteria present where the object is. In the absence of anaerobic bacteria nothing happens.
THE LIVING SOIL: BACTERIA
Bacteria are tiny, one-celled organisms - generally 4/100,000 of an inch wide (1 m) and somewhat longer in length. What bacteria lack in size, they make up in numbers. A teaspoon of productive soil generally contains between 100 million and 1 billion bacteria. That is as much mass as two cows per acre.
http://soils.usda.gov/...concepts/soil_biology/bacteria.html

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 Message 235 by RAZD, posted 11-28-2007 11:07 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 237 by anglagard, posted 11-29-2007 12:36 AM johnfolton has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 237 of 357 (437159)
11-29-2007 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by johnfolton
11-29-2007 12:27 AM


Re: Its a Young Earth Folks !!!!!!
And your point is....?
Do you intend to clutter this thread with irrelevant factoids all the way to version 1 no. 4 or 5 or 6?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by johnfolton, posted 11-29-2007 12:27 AM johnfolton has replied

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 238 of 357 (437171)
11-29-2007 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by anglagard
11-29-2007 12:36 AM


Re: Its a Young Earth Folks !!!!!!
And your point is....?
The earth is alive with bacteria Razd said if present which means he agreed it would affect the ratio.
P.S. The bacteria is all the creationists need to prove his varve data bogus though it was quite interesting, etc...
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

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 Message 240 by RAZD, posted 11-29-2007 7:51 AM johnfolton has replied

PaulK
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Message 239 of 357 (437173)
11-29-2007 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by johnfolton
11-29-2007 2:30 AM


Re: Its a Young Earth Folks !!!!!!
quote:
The bacteria is all the creationists need to prove his varve data bogus
Not true. You need to show that the effect of the bacteria would account for the results. And that includes the varves themselves. As it stands the correlation between the varves and the carbon dates is all RAZD needs to refute the creationists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by johnfolton, posted 11-29-2007 2:30 AM johnfolton has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 240 of 357 (437189)
11-29-2007 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by johnfolton
11-29-2007 2:30 AM


Re: Its a BOGUS Young Earth Folks !!!!!!
The earth is alive with bacteria Razd said if present which means he agreed it would affect the ratio.
And I also mentioned the evidence that shows that bacteria was not present - the leaves had no decayed. There are also insect wings in the organic samples. There was NO humus in the samples.
Conclusion: no bacteria reached the samples before or after they were covered with silt and diatoms.
This is the correlation that you need to explain:
quote:
A 40,000-YEAR VARVE CHRONOLOGY FROM LAKE SUIGETSU, JAPAN: EXTENSION OF THE 14C CALIBRATION CURVE

Note the correlation between C-14 and depth with C-14 and varve count.
Also from AMS 14C DATING OF VARVED SEDIMENTS FROM LAKE SUIGETSU, CENTRAL JAPAN AND ATMOSPHERIC 14C CHANGE DURING THE LATE PLEISTOCENE
quote:
The terrestrial macrofossil samples for AMS 14C dating were collected from ca. 7-m sediments (969.5 cm to 1580 cm) of Core SG4. Single pieces of terrestrial macrofossils such as leaves, small branches and insect wings were selected and washed repeatedly with distilled water and then cleaned chemically by acid-alkali-acid (AAA) treatments to remove secondary contamination.
No humus in the description of fossils found. This is a total refutation for your position.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by johnfolton, posted 11-29-2007 2:30 AM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
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